[Xanth]

I've got a question for you, my lovelies.

The skill system was originally designed to operate on post count with the Packs as a bonus mostly aimed at established players creating their second+ characters. The idea was to make members earn their characters' upgrades by posting in-character, but still leave room for them to create more powerful characters as their second or third etc. Because of that, packs can only be combined between sets (starter+standard, for instance, or starter+standard+hybrid) and not upgraded within that set (so you can't get a modest pack and then get a heroic pack later).

However, the question about upgrading has been asked quite a lot and I now find myself torn over the answer, so I thought I'd bring the issue to you for your feedback. Do you want to be able to upgrade packs within a set? Do you want more packs available (we've always figured 15 was the most anyone would need, but that may have changed since the skill design contest, and I still hope to add more as well). Would you prefer that skills are purchasable only by xanthai (which is acquired by posting IC anyway), or do you like that there's a choice?

I am also considering upping how many freebies are available in the starter pack. I'm torn on this because I like the skill system and that it helps to balance characters out in terms of power. I also like that we have to earn or buy upgrades, but I'm in a position where I can pretty much buy the max pack for any new characters if I want so I don't know what it's like for new members. We've had some awesome new characters created just this spring that are unfortunately limited in what they can do; their skills clash with their backgrounds, which is a real shame from a storytelling perspective.

I want to address these questions/issues and possibly look at ways to let new members create starting characters without crippling them, but not lose that sense that established characters have earned their power. What are your thoughts on the subject?

[Alain]

Xanth, on 19 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

I've got a question for you, my lovelies.

The skill system was originally designed to operate on post count with the Packs as a bonus mostly aimed at established players creating their second+ characters. The idea was to make members earn their characters' upgrades by posting in-character, but still leave room for them to create more powerful characters as their second or third etc. Because of that, packs can only be combined between sets (starter+standard, for instance, or starter+standard+hybrid) and not upgraded within that set (so you can't get a modest pack and then get a heroic pack later).

However, the question about upgrading has been asked quite a lot and I now find myself torn over the answer, so I thought I'd bring the issue to you for your feedback. Do you want to be able to upgrade packs within a set? Do you want more packs available (we've always figured 15 was the most anyone would need, but that may have changed since the skill design contest, and I still hope to add more as well). Would you prefer that skills are purchasable only by xanthai (which is acquired by posting IC anyway), or do you like that there's a choice?

I am also considering upping how many freebies are available in the starter pack. I'm torn on this because I like the skill system and that it helps to balance characters out in terms of power. I also like that we have to earn or buy upgrades, but I'm in a position where I can pretty much buy the max pack for any new characters if I want so I don't know what it's like for new members. We've had some awesome new characters created just this spring that are unfortunately limited in what they can do; their skills clash with their backgrounds, which is a real shame from a storytelling perspective.

I want to address these questions/issues and possibly look at ways to let new members create starting characters without crippling them, but not lose that sense that established characters have earned their power. What are your thoughts on the subject?

The hard part about this is that you have to balance this between being "stat based" and "Free". The Skill System is a middle ground, as stats are almost always a bad thing (especially if not pressed, as they become useless after that). If skills are added, people will usually want to have a bit more points to afford such a thing. I think in this case, it's more important to allow each skill to have it's own advantages, than to create a whole bunch of skills. This is what has been done, for the most part, and that is why this Skill System is appealing, rather than detrimental. Part of the issue of adding skills and thus more points is that you also might add more races into the RP. It tends to create a massive overlap if everyone has this same exact skill, which can be avoided by having "duplicates" operate under different laws.

But that is going a bit beside the point, and more into "adding new content" in general. To give an answer on the skill pack situation, I feel that there shouldn't be a new "highest" cap, as 15 is already pushing it, at least until one factors in how weaknesses work for certain races. In fact, 15 is already too much for the newbies, while maybe just enough for those who have been around longer. To give an idea of the sort of "newbie dilemma", an established member with a plenty to spend could create what really seems to be, comparatively, an OP char with 15 points right off the bat. That's an ability to nearly wipe out a weakness, and "max out"--or close to doing so, for multiple skills. To a new member, this seems plain out unfair, as it's triple what they're capable of, since in some races (particularly Dracovari or Therian, which would appeal most to a member who could actually afford those packs) require skills points in multiple skills to make use of the small amount of skill you end up having. To an older player, they have gotten used to the system and realize things like how they could have points in combat, stealth, their class, and some can gain xanth protection. To them, fifteen is enough, at least I'd hope so. For example, a newbie Therian might want one or two different kind of animals, but what use is that without many points in Morph? Or if you have to invest a lot into Metabolism to make sure that your character won't just wanna be an animal all the time. ;( What's most important is that you never reach the point where you can even come close to mastering all skills within a certain class.

The weird part about that is having our characters grow Skill-wise as we RP. It leaves a bit less room for older characters for new players and more for them to have younger characters (but not too young. About the only class that makes sense by the freebie pack is Anyeli, as Flight is an easy thing to put points in for younger characters-- and even then, if you up the cap, that proves about impossible if higher than 7 points at any given time). Mind, most people play characters between 15-25 (at least lookwise), so that isn't too big of a problem.

But there is a whole new light to this from someone more experience, or someone who just looks around like I have. In the Dracovari's case, one point in their weakness is required to use any of their powers, one point per level of that, so that is far more of a crippling effect to a character. In the case of a Therian, this actually creates a own subset of Therian "classes." Metabolism is entirely optional during all of this, mind, but still a good option as the activity to burn off those cals...man, you gotta be borrow Kiel's energy for that. Someone might have an animal form and choose to either use more of that animal's ability in animal form, or in human form. That is the interesting bit, which makes Therians a very interesting race IMO (something I was initially going to make, before setting it aside for what I felt was a more interesting character), What you do with those very limited amount of points as a newbie really helps you define your character's specialities early on, something you may or may not have once you actually have 10-15 points readily available.

To actually make that make sense, you can have a Therian with one point in form, a few in morph, and another point in mimic. Or you could go for the same, except swap mimic for more points in morph or diminish that weakness. This creates an interesting way to play as one offers to be more of a "super-human with animal abilities", while the other takes the more traditional role of "playing a sentient animal." Of course, this will probably require other points in other skills. That is where the current system shines. One puts more of that huge number of starting points into different things rather than just all into one section so they can gain access to one or two unique skills in their class. That gives someone something to strive for with a character. I think it'd be a lot more interesting to watch a "mid level" Therian go from this process of just using an animal form to learning how to take on a partial transformation than to just have a character start with everything, unless they were like, 30. This is because growing stronger is a good goal for the young, similar to obtaining a career. The older, stronger characters should be looking for what to do with their lives, naturally, rather than just honing their skills continually. Let old high fantasy wizards stick to that path of life.

You can, of course, avoid this with the Dracovari by doing what I did with Alain, which was having him choose a Sept late in life, over 1000 years old, rather than when he was 100. Anyeli sadly wouldn't have that choice, IIRC. While it is a bit weird to have such an older character that is "weak", at least it is a logical reason for his skill set (rather than being bound by skills, they helped define him? I suppose so). Hybrid packs are a whole different story I don't plan on touching majorly when it comes to making a character. It already can be pretty hard to choose, so those bought packs are a bit more necessary for them. ;(

So the only real thing that might need changing is how weaknesses work. Or some way to add one or two points to the freebie so newbies can actually make use of at least half of their points, only one or two is a really big deal at that point. I actually was in an RP back around 2005 that had weaknesses give a few extra skill points that depended on what level they were, which was another way to go about such a situation, but here those extra points make a heck of a lot more difference (they had like...30 skills and 13 weaknesses IIRC, and it was a mighty large thread that listed/detailed them >___<; ).

[Xanth]

Thanks for such thoughtful feedback, David.

If I've understood correctly (distractions galore today *twitch*), then I wonder if it would be better to add the "Young Adult" clause back in for Starter packs. Originally, characters created solely with the Starter Packs had to be in the Young Adult band so they automatically matched up with the limited skills. I removed it so even new members could create older characters if they wanted, in an effort to create some diversity in character ages, but that may be the best way of solving the "cripple" effect some characters suffer. Or perhaps a clause to the effect that the first character a member creates has to be in the YA band would have the same effect.

If the problem is more that members don't understand the full potential of skills when they're new, would examples help? One of the common problems encountered with applications is that members just don't know what skills to pick. I have been toying the idea of creating "how to create a X" guides for each species/class and perhaps even villain-types and "officials" (once summer's over and I have more time). I'm not exactly sure at the moment what I would hope to gain from such guides, but this discussion makes me wonder if I should present examples of the different "paths" that skills can create within the race and class subgroups. (For instance, like you said about Therians choosing to have lots of forms versus morphing control.)

During the Skill Survey, Xexes suggested creating a skill map, but I never really had a chance to sit down and work on it. I've made a few brief attempts, but it's tough to figure out how to do it since there's cross-species connectivity to worry about as well as branching skill paths. I could do mini versions for the guides, though, to show the different options.

Weaknesses definitely need fixing, though. Again, something I'll probably look at more seriously once the summer events are over, but I'm not sure at this point how to do the fixing. We have a couple of options from the different discussions, but yeah.

Would having two different Starter packs seem fair? The one for new members having 5 free upgrades and forcing characters into the Young Adult age band, while one for established members creating a 2nd+ new character having, say, 7 free upgrades and either allowing any age (as now) or allowing YA or Adults? Would it be easier for new members to be confined like that (less reading, fewer options to choose from)? And that way, established members get that little boost of a reward for their next characters, with the option of buying an extra pack?

More opinions would be very welcome.

[Aella]

David and Emma bring up some good suggestions. I'll do my best to organize my post so that it is not crazy. I'll respond to some points made by each of you with my opinion on them, then I will attempt to leave my own suggestions.

"What you do with those very limited amount of points as a newbie really helps you define your character's specialities early on, something you may or may not have once you actually have 10-15 points readily available."

I agree with the meaning behind this, that new players should have a limit (which they do) when making their first character. Because the skill points are then limited, each choice counts and contributes more to that character's uniqueness and personality.

However, I am confused by the second half of the sentence. The way I interpret it, it sounds like David thinks that a new player would be able to purchase a skill pack that would give them fifteen points to attribute right off the bat. I'm not quite sure that is possible, though, given what Emma has stated and with how players accrue Xanth. Adding that limiting clause that Emma mentioned to the starter pack seems relevant, forcing first time players to choose the starter pack and others only for their first character.

"If the problem is more that members don't understand the full potential of skills when they're new, would examples help? One of the common problems encountered with applications is that members just don't know what skills to pick. I have been toying the idea of creating "how to create a X" guides for each species/class and perhaps even villain-types and "officials" (once summer's over and I have more time). I'm not exactly sure at the moment what I would hope to gain from such guides, but this discussion makes me wonder if I should present examples of the different "paths" that skills can create within the race and class subgroups. (For instance, like you said about Therians choosing to have lots of forms versus morphing control.)"

I think that examples are a great way to define a trait, whether individual examples of the skills (like, at elemental manipulation x you can do y) or with general examples of a character 'build' (if you'd like to be a more peaceful character, skills x y and z help you in that regard). These sorts of things could be made my the players themselves; I do not think we need to dump all the responsibility upon you, Emma. Of course you should moderate and approve them.

I have an idea to showcase examples of certain skills at certain levels: why don't we take snippets of RP that highlight the skill in use? With my limited breadth of knowledge (and my forgetfulness), I could use my own character as an example. I'm sure I typed up some elemental manipulation usage somewhere in my posts. That way the community gets exposure for their RPing talent, and new players can get a real example of how choosing that skill can define their character.

"During the Skill Survey, Xexes suggested creating a skill map, but I never really had a chance to sit down and work on it. I've made a few brief attempts, but it's tough to figure out how to do it since there's cross-species connectivity to worry about as well as branching skill paths. I could do mini versions for the guides, though, to show the different options."

I could draw out the skill maps for you. It'd be drawn on a tablet and would not look super neat, I assure you, but I have a good familiarity with them. Of course, that's not as fancy as having a web-based interactive version, but at least it's a visual representation, and some people learn much better through those.

"Weaknesses definitely need fixing, though. Again, something I'll probably look at more seriously once the summer events are over, but I'm not sure at this point how to do the fixing. We have a couple of options from the different discussions, but yeah."

On the topic of weaknesses, it really depends how you'd like to handle them. Some tabletop RPGs (Whitewolf) use weaknesses to enhance the personality of a character - sort of like character faults or psychosis. Certain weaknesses are more debilitating than others, of course, so they are ranked on a point scale. Taking them (which is optional in that setting) allows you more points to spend getting spells and abilities and the like; so, you are hindered in one way but more knowledgeable in another. Not necessarily a mirror of real life, but an interesting take nonetheless.

I have no qualms with the weakness system at the moment. I do not mind having to spend points in a "primary" skill to get a "secondary" skill. Maybe I'm just used to RPGs and the like. But it would be interesting to not have skills dependant upon a certain level in the weakness. As David mentioned (I think), character opportunities like making someone with a low level in the weakness but high levels in other skills is an impossibility, simply because the weakness is a prerequisite. In that light, everyone of x race with y skill will be more or less equal in terms of their resistance to their racial weakness. I hope this all makes sense, and I apologize if not.

"Would having two different Starter packs seem fair? The one for new members having 5 free upgrades and forcing characters into the Young Adult age band, while one for established members creating a 2nd+ new character having, say, 7 free upgrades and either allowing any age (as now) or allowing YA or Adults?"

It sounds fair to me. But maybe label them differently to avoid confusion. "Starter Pack" for new players, and maybe something like "Novice" or "Adept" for future characters of existing players? I'm not sure.

"Would it be easier for new members to be confined like that (less reading, fewer options to choose from)?"

In my opinion, I like options and depth and breadth of information. I like to read, too. So I'm too biased to answer this, I think. It is impossible to please everyone; it is best to please the largest portion of people possible.

"And that way, established members get that little boost of a reward for their next characters, with the option of buying an extra pack?"

The only issue I have with this is... well, I grow very attached to my creations. I probably roleplay quite differently than the average forum RPer, simply because of my background et cetera. Because of this, I just can't fathom (at this point) wanting to make another character - that is, unless my character were logically to move on or be unavailable for a duration. So, to me, being more confined with my first and current character in comparison to a newly created second (or third, or fourth..) character seems a bit constrictive. I want Aella to advance, not for her to be replaced by a new upstart.

A collection of my thoughts:

• All races should have an equal amount of skills available.
  
• There should be an incentive to earn Xanth - at the moment it would seem it is mainly used to accrue skill points.
  
• Earning skillpoints through Xanth or through posts accounts for the same thing: community participation. That is never a bad thing and should not be discouraged.
  
• Players should be able to "upgrade" a skill pack if they have purchased a lesser one. The cost, however, could be arguable. Perhaps the difference between the two? If there is no option to upgrade, then I feel quite foolish for buying a smaller pack instead of saving up for the larger one. I do not see why buying one thing forbids you from purchasing another (though I understand the points should not be additive; simply the larger of the two should come under effect).
  
• If the issue is that too many skill points are available, values could be adjusted (skill packs give less, giving posts more priority). Or, more skills could be added (so that the value of a pack is decreased, since there are more possible places to spend points).
  
• If the issue is that characters perpetually get stronger, ruining roleplay opportunity and reducing character individuality, perhaps a change to the skill system is in order. An idea would be to have POSTS count for a certain type of skill (attributes maybe? like strength, dexterity, blahblah) and xanth/skillpacks count towards another type of skill (abilities?). These are simply ideas and could be tweaked, of course. The point is that maybe a differentiation would be helpful in preventing a player from simply hording xanth and making/upgrading a character that is the best in everything ever. Posts become required for certain things, forcing that character to be "active" to make use of their spent xanth/skill packs.
  
• As David said, keep skills unique so that races remain unique. Or perhaps have a pool of "communal" skills that are obtainable by any race. Things like oration, cooking, et cetera.
  
• David also said that "The Skill System is a middle ground, as stats are almost always a bad thing." I'm not sold on the opinion that stats are almost always a bad thing. I think, when left open to interpretation and intentionally broad, stats do not limit character growth or design. Only if taken rigidly, with strict rules et cetera, may it become a detriment to the character and the community. So, we must find that balance that appeals to the largest community of players.

[Alain]

Gonna start quoting ya first Aella. >.>

Spoiler

Aella, on 20 June 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

David and Emma bring up some good suggestions. I'll do my best to organize my post so that it is not crazy. I'll respond to some points made by each of you with my opinion on them, then I will attempt to leave my own suggestions.

"What you do with those very limited amount of points as a newbie really helps you define your character's specialities early on, something you may or may not have once you actually have 10-15 points readily available."

I agree with the meaning behind this, that new players should have a limit (which they do) when making their first character. Because the skill points are then limited, each choice counts and contributes more to that character's uniqueness and personality.

However, I am confused by the second half of the sentence. The way I interpret it, it sounds like David thinks that a new player would be able to purchase a skill pack that would give them fifteen points to attribute right off the bat. I'm not quite sure that is possible, though, given what Emma has stated and with how players accrue Xanth. Adding that limiting clause that Emma mentioned to the starter pack seems relevant, forcing first time players to choose the starter pack and others only for their first character.

Thanks for the organization, hopefully mine won't be too jumbled up in return.

I wholeheartedly agree with the first bit, I like that new players are pretty limited, because that makes them really research and learn those skills they are investing in. Do I want a mind controlling Charmer? Or perhaps...

You get the idea. Stirs interest, even if slightly frustrating at first.

As for the second part, sorry for the confusion. I am actually pretty against the heroic pack's existence already. >___>; Maybe if someone was some uber aide or something it'd make sense to start that strong with a character, but otherwise one would have too many points in skills to actually use. I feel that people shouldn't reach some point where they max a ton of things out, and instead just upgrade their skills until it fits their character best. For example, there might've been one or two times where someone feels that he or she has done just about everything he or she can do with a character, and focus on another one instead. That's a good sign that the character has lost quite a bit of focus (either in skills, or development wise) and met plenty of the creator's initial goals.

I'll get to the clause Emma mentioned in the next quote, if you're interested at any of that.

Spoiler

Xanth, on 20 June 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

Thanks for such thoughtful feedback, David.

If I've understood correctly (distractions galore today *twitch*), then I wonder if it would be better to add the "Young Adult" clause back in for Starter packs. Originally, characters created solely with the Starter Packs had to be in the Young Adult band so they automatically matched up with the limited skills. I removed it so even new members could create older characters if they wanted, in an effort to create some diversity in character ages, but that may be the best way of solving the "cripple" effect some characters suffer. Or perhaps a clause to the effect that the first character a member creates has to be in the YA band would have the same effect.

Hmm. Depends, I think it's okay if someone makes an older character, but it needs to make sense as to why they don't have much "power." I like having it removed, as I managed to create Alain, after all. He may not be as powerful as he is supposed to be, but that can be solved with time, so I don't really mind it (especially since I plan for certain "caps" on his skills. He IS a corrupt magistrate and a bit greedy, after all. Those hoarding instincts might never pass 3 or 4, pretty sure 3).

The main issue would be if someone wanted to create an older character who started using their powers early. Logically, they better have damn good use of them, but one could always say they simply never had a teacher or something, there are plenty of ways around that. Maybe someone even sealed their abilities for a time. Not sure how that one would work. I dunno, I don't really feel it crippling on the age side of things, but more the mandatory points in weaknesses. We don't want to feed practically every day as a Vampire, or feed all day if you're a Therian. ;( Gotta work off those cals!

If the problem is more that members don't understand the full potential of skills when they're new, would examples help? One of the common problems encountered with applications is that members just don't know what skills to pick. I have been toying the idea of creating "how to create a X" guides for each species/class and perhaps even villain-types and "officials" (once summer's over and I have more time). I'm not exactly sure at the moment what I would hope to gain from such guides, but this discussion makes me wonder if I should present examples of the different "paths" that skills can create within the race and class subgroups. (For instance, like you said about Therians choosing to have lots of forms versus morphing control.)

Hmm. I think it might be interesting to eventually have a sort of mention to a "sub-class/build" of sorts. For example, Alain would be a self-improving Pet. Most likely, he'll invest more points in mental shields and one more in telepathy/hoard than moving onto infliction or mind control, and let the dastardly deeds be played out by others while he masterminds them. Anyway, I'd imagine someone who is a more of a "field criminal", such as a member of the Syndicate, might torture using infliction or control someone's mind to make them burn down a building. Hopefully I'm not giving too many ideas there.

I don't believe there are enough skills at the moment to require a guide of sorts for those yet, though, as most people who are interested in such a thing would just go for it. If we do get more skills, I might see that 15 point pack as pretty useful, but another part of me says that sticking to a 10 point max would make me instead work harder to get those newer skills.

Would having two different Starter packs seem fair? The one for new members having 5 free upgrades and forcing characters into the Young Adult age band, while one for established members creating a 2nd+ new character having, say, 7 free upgrades and either allowing any age (as now) or allowing YA or Adults? Would it be easier for new members to be confined like that (less reading, fewer options to choose from)? And that way, established members get that little boost of a reward for their next characters, with the option of buying an extra pack?

More opinions would be very welcome.

Sorry, was my opinion a tad too voiced there? Or just encouraging more comments?

I think the 10 point max for starting off makes a good bit of sense, but there is one case I'd see the heroic pack as a bit more acceptable. In the case of that 10 point max-- it's doubly as strong as a newbie char, but it's not triple—or more. >_> Double the points is understandable, it's when someone has triple the points or higher that makes things feel unfair for a newbie.

Both starter and starter+modest pack combos still require one invests in a character (posting) to reach what might be all their goals, but when you get to the territory of starter+heroic... Just not sure on there being two packs in use at once, as having one starter pack + additional packs added onto that tally already gets confusing for some. It'd make sense for people if they have just one pack, either starter (first character-5 points) and modest at a cost of xanthi to use, rather than having both a starter and another pack added on top of it. To actually make that last sentence make sense, I believe that a player should just be using one pack, unless they're going hybrid. When it gets to starter+anything one gets access to what might be a bit too many points.

I might be confusing at this point, so I'll use a specific example to explain what I meant. Sadly, this is a character I like, and I even chose to interact with him because of that, but hes a good example of having everything about "capped" within his class.

Mortimer Jericho
Packs Used: Starter (5/5) & Heroic (15/15)
Posts Used: 0

Hoard 5
Mental Shield 4
Telepathy 5
Mind Control 2
Infliction 4

I like Jericho because he stays within a certain range of abilities. He is more mentally based, rather than getting like, telepathy, infliction, mental shields, and high levels of combat. That'd be a mixture of mental and physical powers that you'd expect out of a warrior, and a downright cheaparse one too. But given his stats, he would probably need to be more than a usurer to gain that many abilities, because he has the powers of a darn crimelord. This is mainly due to infliction, as I'd imagine mind control being much more useful against those more unwilling buyers. Of course, I think this can be easily justified if he made a few enemies and had a few bad experiences in the conflicts during his time, as it's not like hes going out of his area of expertise here. If he had perhaps just Heroic, then the points in infliction probably would be a lot lower, since it'd be just fifteen points to spend, rather than twenty. As it stands now, he could literally turn around and face a couple that were pursuing him, then cause them to go into neurogenic shock and from a few feet away. >_> Mind, he'd probably take a wound if they were mere feet away...

I'm sure you weren't coming in here for that kind of criticism, so sorry if I mighta been "out of line"-- just trying to use an example that struck me most when I was first lurking on the site as having "too many points" that look like straying from skill->characterization ratio there. The best example of many points used well IMO is Kiel. He has a lot of different masteries, but one would expect him be open to so many different things, with his personality. That raises a few questions.

• Should elemental/other supernatural powers be similar to combat, where you can really just keep investing without reaching what feels as "OMG THAT'S CHEAP AS HECK!" or should it stay as is? It would certainly be a bit more fair for Emma to keep things as they are in terms of packs, rather than eliminating extra points on most of her characters. I mean, this isn't really much of a problem at the moment given that she is the only one really at that point, and she isn't a tyrant about her characters powers. Then again, maybe I just haven't been around long enough to see that.
  
  
• Would it be better to have characters such as Jericho start according to their status (he is more of a modest type of guy), since hes not really a huge mover and shaker in society, but still pretty powerful? If he was forced down to just a Modest or a Heroic pack, with no additional Starter pack, would that "solve" the issue of overpowered appearance? I mean, eventually he will probably get back to this point, having points to spend in something that doesn't suit his character (who prefers to avoid conflict at all costs).

Bleh. Maybe I'm just overcomplicating things. Aella had a lot of suggestions that were particularly interesting on how an individual skills works, and me going on about making such skills have multiple ways of use per skill to invest in might make that a whole new ballgame. I am a huge reading/lore freak (as if Alain's history wasn't a good enough cue >.>), but I know a few who are my exact opposite.

Actually going back on a few of Aella's points...

Spoiler

Aella, on 20 June 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

"And that way, established members get that little boost of a reward for their next characters, with the option of buying an extra pack?"

The only issue I have with this is... well, I grow very attached to my creations. I probably roleplay quite differently than the average forum RPer, simply because of my background et cetera. Because of this, I just can't fathom (at this point) wanting to make another character - that is, unless my character were logically to move on or be unavailable for a duration. So, to me, being more confined with my first and current character in comparison to a newly created second (or third, or fourth..) character seems a bit constrictive. I want Aella to advance, not for her to be replaced by a new upstart.

If I remember correctly, those skill packs were more for people who have earned the credits using their original character a lot. A normal RPer wouldn't normally save up to starter+heroic at the same time without being here a few years, so those extra packs were a way to reward them for being around for awhile for when they make their next character. So I wouldn't worry to much about the replacing concept, the packs were more to add a new spin onto your next character, rather than replacing your current character. I might be totally wrong there, though.

A collection of my thoughts:

• Players should be able to "upgrade" a skill pack if they have purchased a lesser one. The cost, however, could be arguable. Perhaps the difference between the two? If there is no option to upgrade, then I feel quite foolish for buying a smaller pack instead of saving up for the larger one. I do not see why buying one thing forbids you from purchasing another (though I understand the points should not be additive; simply the larger of the two should come under effect).

Just restating this one, it seems like a fair enough idea IMO. :X

If the issue is that characters perpetually get stronger, ruining roleplay opportunity and reducing character individuality, perhaps a change to the skill system is in order. An idea would be to have POSTS count for a certain type of skill (attributes maybe? like strength, dexterity, blahblah) and xanth/skillpacks count towards another type of skill (abilities?). These are simply ideas and could be tweaked, of course. The point is that maybe a differentiation would be helpful in preventing a player from simply hording xanth and making/upgrading a character that is the best in everything ever. Posts become required for certain things, forcing that character to be "active" to make use of their spent xanth/skill packs.

Hmm, I'm afraid I'm not quite following on the first bit. Well, I might be. From what I am getting (mind, it's 1:45AM, my head's getting a bit foggy by this point in my post, since I started around 12ish) you are saying that posts would count towards more of an attribute/stat that aid a certain set of skills while the skill packs count toward abilities such as form, combat, or regeneration? Just making sure I am reading that bit right. Since what seems to go on later is that more posts are required every so often to keep those attribute/stat increases?

Not sure on that bit. I once heard from a friend who was at a forum where the owner required you post at least once a month or he would delete your account (sometimes happened to vacationers), and understandably they veered from the site and it died. As for mandatory activity for a set time—well, a year wouldn't be too bad, as if someone is gone for a whole year, it'd probably be excused/annouced as heavy workload college courses or something. If you go for shorter it'd probably just scare people away.

As David said, keep skills unique so that races remain unique. Or perhaps have a pool of "communal" skills that are obtainable by any race. Things like oration, cooking, et cetera.

It'd actually be pretty cool to see race specific knowledges, as it'd certainly expand on the culture of said races. I've read around before with the older profiles, and they tended to have a knowledge set of things like cooking and art mentioned in the profile. I'm not aware of any limitations on those back then, though, as they were frequently described as good or excellent.

This bit might be us going a bit off topic, so sorry for commenting. Just figured I'd give my reasoning behind my opinion on stats on forum rps.

[i]

David also said that "The Skill System is a middle ground, as stats are almost always a bad thing." I'm not sold on the opinion that stats are almost always a bad thing. I think, when left open to interpretation and intentionally broad, stats do not limit character growth or design. Only if taken rigidly, with strict rules et cetera, may it become a detriment to the character and the community. So, we must find that balance that appeals to the largest community of players.

The main reason I said that is because I've seen a lot of different stat systems over the years of forum roleplaying, sometimes in junction with a perks/weaknesses system that you'd find in a tabletop RPG. On forums, people tend to have either an opinion of "Your stats are, like, killing my creativity. MY INNER ARTISTE IS BEING DENIED. D':" or all "Well Imma just post whatever my character does and completely ignore these stat thingies I made at creation." It's often good to have simple rules that are just strictly enforced, as otherwise that tends to happen. I can't really say an exact number, but I know I've seen more than fifteen stat system RPs, and I can only remember three successful RPs (even their names!) that resulted from having them. One of which didn't even use dice, which is a huge thing in the other two stat based RPs. The main issue that those that failed faced were more community based than the system itself. So I'd be wrong to say that stats themselves are bad, but the many different ways people end up handling them are. After all, it only takes one or two disruptive people to really start derailing even a well developed system. And if you throw them out for misconduct, their buddies tend to be miffed about that.

We might be on two completely opposite opinions on this due to different backgrounds, though, so I understand if you disagree with me there. I love stats in tabletop roleplaying, but I so rarely see them work well in forum roleplays that I tend to avoid the thought out of habit, unless it's pretty simple stats that everyone can get into while still enforced enough to be fun (many cases of the failures were stats not enforced at all and the RP falling at the seams). You can really never tell where it's at upon creation since everybody and their brother has a differing opinion on how to run forum based-stat RPs, though.

[Faris]

Pchan Rolling In~

Disclaimer: I'm a relatively prolific poster who has been around for more than a month, so naturally my PoV is skewed.

Let's start off with a review of the current skill system, backed by numbers

Numbers Ahoy!!!

Number of skills available to each class:

• 7 Therians, Zans & Aurumus
  
• 8~9 Everyone Else

*Weaknesses are included since they can be leveled, and I don't double-count for multiple Combat skills, because then Rutilus would have like up to 12 skills? They're such super outliers lol.

Max skill points: 35 or 40/45.
*keep in mind the actual number may be slightly higher due to Combat

Skill Packs Available:

• Starter: 5
  
• Modest: +5
  
• Heroic: +15
  
• Humble: +5
  
• Noble: +10

Range number of skills that can be obtained from combining packs: 5 ~ 25
*25 = 15 Heroic + 10 Noble
wiki says "(Hybrid Packs)They can be combined with the Starter Pack or either of the Standard Packs."
Otherwise Starter+Heroic+Noble = 30. Even more staggering.

So in the worst/best case scenario: 25/35 skill points right off the bat from character creation.
*I said the number of max skill points might be slightly higher, but it is not by much. Admittedly it is +5 for Zans, but a mere +1 for Aurumus and Therians. 36 isn't much better than 35.

---

Now that that's out of the way...
Onward to the questions!

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Do you want to be able to upgrade packs within a set?

Well it wouldn't make sense IC-wise. like BAM! suddenly my weak character turns badass. Might wreck havoc on IC relationships, especially those rivalry-power-based ones. At the same time the same thing could happen anyway with accumulating post counts (15*20= 300 posts O.O!!) It may be a lot harder but still possible so I'm not making a very strong argument here lol.

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Do you want more packs available

Not unless they're very very steeply priced, no.

I agree that sometimes skills become a restriction during character creation (I initially wanted Argyris to be super badass, now she's just reasonable). However I am pretty adamant about keeping the max 25 from packs as it is. (or 20 for non-hybrid characters) it is pretty badass as it is. I would say that increasing the upper limit might lead to a distinct skill points gap between the newly joined players (stuck with 5) and old-timers (20 and beyond~! And post counts to boot!). Plus the potential for hordes of child prodigies make my toes curl

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Would you prefer that skills are purchasable only by xanthai (which is acquired by posting IC anyway), or do you like that there's a choice?

This is an interesting idea, especially with the lack of use the prize shop is seeing.
I'm on the fence with this, since allowing it by xanthai defeats the point of using post counts at all.
(the two already overlap due to the 5 xanthai for every IC post thing. The system could simply just charge 100 xanthai for every skill point. but then a pack costs wayyyy more per SP ignoring the side perks of housing and special items...Which doesn't make sense either lol)

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...how many freebies are available in the starter pack... ...I don't know what it's like for new members.

It's a matter of whether players want to start their character from level 0 near the starting village or just skip straight to the bossfight, so to speak.
I enjoy seeing my characters suffer (Faris in the desert!) so yea.

I'll tell you straight up, Emma - The process of allocating points for Faris was painful. It's like I didn't want him to be a complete noob but then I didn't want him to stink and yea.
It was fun though, make me choose what my character wanted to specialize in. And I was "ignore the physicals! *dumps points into EM ES*" and totally threw flight out of the window. Transmute too, since he wouldn't need it. (Now that he's in the desert it's a totally different story lol)
Plus, I don't have a habit of making especially powerful PCs so I did not really have an issue with it. (even with Argyris. I decided she would be a passive telepath, so I was able to ignore many of her potential skills)

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I want to address these questions/issues and possibly look at ways to let new members create starting characters without crippling them, but not lose that sense that established characters have earned their power. What are your thoughts on the subject?

This is a difficult one. I've been thinking about this, but the only thing I keep coming back to is connections. Connections with NPCs (which can be created on the spot) and connections with PCs (not so easy). It's the one thing that established characters have. Well, apart from various quest rewards, but not everyone does quests. I was going to say positions of power within organisations too, but there're so many positions which are open at the moment that this point is pretty moot. (with the sole exception of the Howling Leviathan I guess)

[Xanth]

Just wanted to say that I haven't forgotten about this. I had a long reply typed out a day after Pchan posted, but it got nommed by the board and I haven't had chance to regather my thoughts yet.

One thing I want to ask quickly is: Would the skills be easier to navigate and/or understand and/or "chart" if they weren't combined (like instead of "Elemental Manipulation" all being one page, we had pages for Light Manipulation, Shadow Manipulation etc, or two different Heal pages for Viridi and Peacekeepers)?

[Xanth]

Sorry if my post is a bit disjointed. There was a lot to respond to!

@David:
I was just encouraging more comments, lol. I appreciate everything you guys have said. No worries about criticism of Jericho (or my other characters), either. Their being created with higher packs is part of the reason I need help with understanding characters at the lower end of the skill spectrum, and he is a tad more powerful than he needs to be. (He has had a lot of bad experiences with clients, but in my defence I do tend to downplay his powers a lot. Theoretically, he could, as you say, take down a couple of people like that, and I chose to level Infliction rather than Mind Control because he thinks that pain will get him the goods faster than a mental nudge (but you need certain pre-requisites for the level of Infliction he wanted). He has Rusty and Ninian because he uses physical proximity to intimidate them and that makes him vulnerable to sudden attacks, as he's learned in the past. I like to think that, despite the number of skills he has, he's not actually overpowered -- though he is capable of pushing himself if need be.)

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Should elemental/other supernatural powers be similar to combat, where you can really just keep investing without reaching what feels as "OMG THAT'S CHEAP AS HECK!" or should it stay as is?

Sorry, could you clarify this for me? I'm not really sure what you mean.

@Solstice:
I would love if you could work something up for a skill tree, Solstice! I'm one of those people who learn better visually, so it would be very useful. I'm not sure how we'd go about adding new skills, though.

David's right in a way about Skill Packs. They were meant as a means of either creating a higher-powered older character (since we initially had the Young Adult clause on Starters), and as a means of allowing current characters to evolve over time even if the player couldn't/didn't post. The idea was that you can use them to create a new character, but you don't have to.

@Pchan: Thank you for the numbers. But child prodigies, yech~.

Packs:
1SP from a Modest pack currently costs ζ400 (ζ333 Heroic, ζ1,000 Humble, or ζ800 Noble), but I think that would probably be prohibitive if we tried charging it for standard (what is currently bought with post count) SP. When we introduced Skill Packs, they were meant to be used less than post count (hence the staggered prices), but if we started charging xanthai instead of post count, there's no reason to charge so much for a pack because they're essentially the same. You'd basically just be buying the pack for a bunch of skills at once, rather than buying upgrades one at a time. If anything, switching to xanthai would make more sense if buying "in bulk" gave you a discount, so the packs would have to be much much less than this, or the single upgrades would have to cost a minimum of ζ450 to make the packs worth it (else why bother buying a pack when you could just buy 5 single upgrades in one go. The only reason you might is for the extra special item and housing allowance).

The more I consider it, the less I like the idea of switching, except that using strictly xanthai would mean less reading/confusion for newcomers. They could see right away that 1SP costs ζXXX, instead of having to do the 20 posts = 1SP equation. And we could put skill packs in the Prize Shop, possibly instead of having their own page (though the PS is already a bit unwieldy, so I'm not sure about that).

Either way, I plan to rework the Packs using the feedback you all have given. Prices are are currently up for debate, especially if we decide to swap to using cash only. And yes, I will be allowing upgrades between Packs (at the cost of the difference between the pack you had and the pack you want (eg. Modest > Heroic would cost ζ3,000).

Starter (free for 1st character; 5SP to be used during application; includes 1 Special Item and Tier 0-1 Housing)
Adept (free for 2nd+ character; 5SP to be used during application, 3SP to be used at any time during or after (8SP total); includes 2 Special Items and Tier 0-1 Housing)
Modest (ζ2,000; 5SP to be used during application, 5SP to be used at any time during or after (10SP total); includes 2 Special Items and Tier 0-2 Housing)
Heroic (ζ5,000; 5SP to be used during application, 10 to be used at any time during or after (15SP total); includes 3 Special Items and Tier 0-3 Housing)

Hybrids:
What about, instead of Packs for hybrid characters, we have a Hybrid Token or something. It wouldn't come with any upgrades of its own, you'd literally just be buying the right to use your existing SP for secondary skills. It'd cost something like ζ2,000 per token and be available from the Prize Shop (as something like "Hybrid Token: Allows you to spend your skill points on secondary skills".), so I'd remove the Hybrid packs from the Skills section altogether. They wouldn't affect your Housing tier or how many special items you were allowed. That way, any of the Starter-Heroic upgrades could be used on a hybrid character rather than having to buy 5/10 SP specifically for that use.

Pack clause:
I'm still tempted to add the Young Adult clause back in, but what if it was with a caveat along the lines of "Starter characters must be in the Young Adult character, unless you can justify their age versus their lack of skills"? (That's worded poorly, but you know.) So the majority of characters with only 5SP are still YA, but players who want to delve deeper can have a background that explains why they haven't kept up with their peers. That works for me, since the biggest reason to have the YA clause is to prevent a clash between a character's IC background and a potentially OOC skill set anyway.

Weaknesses:
I'm thinking of pursuing the suggestions David and Solstice made about turning weaknesses into "advantages". Instead of forcing people to take Hoard per level of an actual skill (like Telepathy), what if weaknesses were optional but gave percentage boosts; so if you have Hoard 1, you get a 20% boost to all your Sept skills or Metabolism 1 gives a 15% ('cause I tend to think that needing to eat all the time is more debilitating than "ooh shiny!")? Weaknesses could be reworked so they're a bit less focused on levelling what "Hoard" means and a bit more about levelling how the diminishing effects of Hoard mean you can do more with your actual skills (eg. "Level 1: Have a 10% chance of beating your hoarding instinct." becomes "Level 1: Your hoarding instinct diverts 80% of your focus, giving you a 20% boost to your skills." -- only better worded ).

Alternatively, rather than a percentage boost, we could offer, say, 2 skill point for every upgrade of a weakness (so you'd get 4SP from Hoard 2; you're essentially getting 2 free skill points from it). I'm not sure I like this idea, but it would probably be easier to manage, more visibly accessible and possibly less confusing than a percentage boost. (If we say Hoard 2 gives you a 40% boost to your skills, then you, me and everyone roleplaying with you has to know what Hoard 2 in your skill list means. Whereas, if you just say that Hoard 2 returns 2SP, you can spend those SP at the skill shop and those skills are added to your list and no one needs to do any further reading than they would anyway.) I guess the numbers on this would need some adjusting to find a suitable balance between what you guys would consider worth the effort of upgrading a weakness in exchange for more SP, and what would be a good cap (eg. maxing out Hoard gives you 5 extra SP you wouldn't get otherwise, but is that too much or just enough?) Making weaknesses offer SP means I/we wouldn't have to rework the skills, though, so I think it's worth pursuing this option just for that.

The problem is in weaknesses like Swimming for Anyeli. I can't see any (IC) way to turn this into an advantage. With things like Metabolism, Urbanitis, Bloodlust and Hoard, the weakness comes not from needing to hoard things or in needing to eat so much, but in how those things affect the concentration required to change shape or read minds. I don't see a lack of Swimming capability affecting anything but an Anyeli's ability to fly (which does have its own merits as a weakness, like preventing them from flying in bad weather, but that's not very easily enforced). Likewise, Stench can't boost the other Zanaryan skills, though it at least does become a skill in its own right by Level 4.

So one option is to give Anyeli (and possibly Zanaryans) a different weakness that's more easily adapted into a skill boost. (In which case, any ideas? ) Another option is to ignore the IC meaning behind a weakness (which I'd prefer not to do, really).

Differentiation of skills between races/classes:
I do plan to host a skill design contest to create new additions which will hopefully help with this. (Its primary purpose will be to develop the new species, so we may end up having more than one tied to the plot.) However, I will say that, as a creator and a player, I like that the races aren't evenly matched. For me, that makes them more interesting to play. Pitting Maaike against Kiel means she knows going in that she stands very little chance of winning by herself in a fair fight, but it's part of her character to never be alone (if she can help it) and she'll fight as dirty as she has to in order to survive. She'll use people (like Aiden during the One-Winged Ben quest) and her animals to gain an advantage more than just using her own skills, and she'll throw sand in his face or kick him where it hurts. That inequality helps me to develop and play my characters -- just like how Jericho has the ability to inflict crippling pain on a bunch of people, but he needs Rusty and Ninian to watch his back while he does so.

I don't want to dismiss the idea of equality because I truly do understand the reasons for wanting it. Speaking as the person behind the system, though, I just don't see how to get it, especially when you consider that the skills aren't equal even across the levels (Combat has only 3 upgrades available while Morph has 6, for instance, because that was the best way I could find to describe and level them).

And every time we add new skills, we'd have to find a new balance all over again. (Case in point: Before the Skill Design Contest in 2010, Nymphs had the fewest available skills because they essentially only had EM and ES. Most of the skills created through that contest were Nymph-based, so they were pushed right to the top instead. I could have just added one new skill and/or waited for another contest before adding the rest, but they were all really good ideas and I had no idea when I'd be hosting another contest (2 years later, as it happens). The coming contest may mean the Therians get pushed above everyone else, or the Zanaryans get a ton of new skills instead.) The nature of EF means that as the game evolves and the member base changes, the skill system grows unequally to meet the current players' needs. (I think we're pretty balanced right now in terms of what species are being played, but that's not always the case.)

Maybe we should have a sticky thread in Feedback for skill design, though. I tend to think that contests generate more interest at once than a forgotten thread would, but at least then there'd be the option of adding new stuff at will.

Splitting skill pages:
I think certain skills need to be split, after all (like splitting Glide to its own page because Zanaryans can't fly but the title of the skill suggests they can). I'm not sure to what extent that needs to be taken, though. Are skills like Heal (shared by Viridi and Peacekeepers, but with their own techniques) okay together on the single page, or should they be separate and have different names?

[Alain]

Xanth, on 05 July 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

One thing I want to ask quickly is: Would the skills be easier to navigate and/or understand and/or "chart" if they weren't combined (like instead of "Elemental Manipulation" all being one page, we had pages for Light Manipulation, Shadow Manipulation etc, or two different Heal pages for Viridi and Peacekeepers)?

I think having a page for each would allow for more definition one what each does, but might be an unnecessary split if we don't expand on them (mostly thinking of EM for that one). As for the chart...might be harder. It'd look like the Great Houses page in terms of connecting lines between skills and classes

Sorry if my post is a bit disjointed. There was a lot to respond to!

The pot calling the kettle black, were I to say a word about such a thing.

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@David:

I was just encouraging more comments, lol. I appreciate everything you guys have said. No worries about criticism of Jericho (or my other characters), either. Their being created with higher packs is part of the reason I need help with understanding characters at the lower end of the skill spectrum, and he is a tad more powerful than he needs to be. (He has had a lot of bad experiences with clients, but in my defence I do tend to downplay his powers a lot. Theoretically, he could, as you say, take down a couple of people like that, and I chose to level Infliction rather than Mind Control because he thinks that pain will get him the goods faster than a mental nudge (but you need certain pre-requisites for the level of Infliction he wanted). He has Rusty and Ninian because he uses physical proximity to intimidate them and that makes him vulnerable to sudden attacks, as he's learned in the past. I like to think that, despite the number of skills he has, he's not actually overpowered -- though he is capable of pushing himself if need be.)

Should elemental/other supernatural powers be similar to combat, where you can really just keep investing without reaching what feels as "OMG THAT'S CHEAP AS HECK!" or should it stay as is?
Sorry, could you clarify this for me? I'm not really sure what you mean.

Sure thing. The main reason I stated that is that characters that are either elementalists or empaths would run out of skill points in their own "tree" fairly quickly compared to the more warrior-like characters. As a result, a weird idea of branching elemental manipulation into seperate "styles" so that there is more to do with them came about...but I think that is just my relation between Elemental Manipulation and bending from Avatar: TLA. Besides, that problem will be eliminated with only one more skill for such characters.

Packs:

1SP from a Modest pack currently costs ζ400 (ζ333 Heroic, ζ1,000 Humble, or ζ800 Noble), but I think that would probably be prohibitive if we tried charging it for standard (what is currently bought with post count) SP. When we introduced Skill Packs, they were meant to be used less than post count (hence the staggered prices), but if we started charging xanthai instead of post count, there's no reason to charge so much for a pack because they're essentially the same. You'd basically just be buying the pack for a bunch of skills at once, rather than buying upgrades one at a time. If anything, switching to xanthai would make more sense if buying "in bulk" gave you a discount, so the packs would have to be much much less than this, or the single upgrades would have to cost a minimum of ζ450 to make the packs worth it (else why bother buying a pack when you could just buy 5 single upgrades in one go. The only reason you might is for the extra special item and housing allowance).

The more I consider it, the less I like the idea of switching, except that using strictly xanthai would mean less reading/confusion for newcomers. They could see right away that 1SP costs ζXXX, instead of having to do the 20 posts = 1SP equation. And we could put skill packs in the Prize Shop, possibly instead of having their own page (though the PS is already a bit unwieldy, so I'm not sure about that).

Either way, I plan to rework the Packs using the feedback you all have given. Prices are are currently up for debate, especially if we decide to swap to using cash only. And yes, I will be allowing upgrades between Packs (at the cost of the difference between the pack you had and the pack you want (eg. Modest > Heroic would cost ζ3,000).

Starter (free for 1st character; 5SP to be used during application; includes 1 Special Item and Tier 0-1 Housing)
Adept (free for 2nd+ character; 5SP to be used during application, 3SP to be used at any time during or after (8SP total); includes 2 Special Items and Tier 0-1 Housing)
Modest (ζ2,000; 5SP to be used during application, 5SP to be used at any time during or after (10SP total); includes 2 Special Items and Tier 0-2 Housing)
Heroic (ζ5,000; 5SP to be used during application, 10 to be used at any time during or after (15SP total); includes 3 Special Items and Tier 0-3 Housing)

The main reason I don't see strictly xanthai working is because of the balance between skill points and skill packs. One would end up being the far more likely choice as a result of that. For example, single skill points would be far preferrable to a skill pack if they were perfectly balanced—barring special items and housing. Though so far I like the ideas for the starters, just so long as they don't stack (imagine Adept+Heroic abuse >>. My only real question there is whether people will purposefully make a weaker starting char and then turn around to make a second char less than a week later just for those points. I can see precautions being easily made towards this, though. lol

Hybrids:

What about, instead of Packs for hybrid characters, we have a Hybrid Token or something. It wouldn't come with any upgrades of its own, you'd literally just be buying the right to use your existing SP for secondary skills. It'd cost something like ζ2,000 per token and be available from the Prize Shop (as something like "Hybrid Token: Allows you to spend your skill points on secondary skills".), so I'd remove the Hybrid packs from the Skills section altogether. They wouldn't affect your Housing tier or how many special items you were allowed. That way, any of the Starter-Heroic upgrades could be used on a hybrid character rather than having to buy 5/10 SP specifically for that use.

I'm not sure I'm totally getting this part. Buying an item to gain access to skills that are secondary to your character's race sounds kind of gimped to me. Especially at 2,000 xanthai to gain access to them. I think I have to be missing something here, since it'd be better off just letting hybrid characters use what already exists at that rate. I mean, if they could afford that token, why not just upgrade to Modest for 5 points to put into primary and secondary skills at will? It just doesn't make sense to have to buy something—skill pack or item—to gain access to what is naturally part of your character.

I think it should be explained in character as to why they gain access to such secondary skills first, and then allow for secondary skills after that, rather than making a transaction OOC that doesn't even get them more points to invest for such skills. For example, something like a quarter-Anyeli gaining access to one of the Anyeli skillsets would require some sort of trainer to help them get there (and find a willing one, at that). Buying something OOC and allowing them to gain access to secondary skills almost magically just seems so alien to me. :X

Weaknesses:

I'm thinking of pursuing the suggestions David and Solstice made about turning weaknesses into "advantages". Instead of forcing people to take Hoard per level of an actual skill (like Telepathy), what if weaknesses were optional but gave percentage boosts; so if you have Hoard 1, you get a 20% boost to all your Sept skills or Metabolism 1 gives a 15% ('cause I tend to think that needing to eat all the time is more debilitating than "ooh shiny!")? Weaknesses could be reworked so they're a bit less focused on levelling what "Hoard" means and a bit more about levelling how the diminishing effects of Hoard mean you can do more with your actual skills (eg. "Level 1: Have a 10% chance of beating your hoarding instinct." becomes "Level 1: Your hoarding instinct diverts 80% of your focus, giving you a 20% boost to your skills." -- only better worded ).

Alternatively, rather than a percentage boost, we could offer, say, 2 skill point for every upgrade of a weakness (so you'd get 4SP from Hoard 2; you're essentially getting 2 free skill points from it). I'm not sure I like this idea, but it would probably be easier to manage, more visibly accessible and possibly less confusing than a percentage boost. (If we say Hoard 2 gives you a 40% boost to your skills, then you, me and everyone roleplaying with you has to know what Hoard 2 in your skill list means. Whereas, if you just say that Hoard 2 returns 2SP, you can spend those SP at the skill shop and those skills are added to your list and no one needs to do any further reading than they would anyway.) I guess the numbers on this would need some adjusting to find a suitable balance between what you guys would consider worth the effort of upgrading a weakness in exchange for more SP, and what would be a good cap (eg. maxing out Hoard gives you 5 extra SP you wouldn't get otherwise, but is that too much or just enough?) Making weaknesses offer SP means I/we wouldn't have to rework the skills, though, so I think it's worth pursuing this option just for that.

I'll comment on the latter because I'm largely biased towards it. I'm not a fan of adding too many percentages that are not easily “rolled” so to speak, especially when other skills like mental and elemental shields purposefully reduce such chances. Having another added percentage towards such things would sort of defeat their purpose since 10% deflection is nothing to a 90% success rate. As for the SP, 1 per weakness rank sounds best, to prevent any extreme abuse of such a thing. That way a character could have more power, but only in exchange for a glaring flaw that even NPCs might pick up on.

It depends, as, to play devil's advocate on that, weaknesses were meant to be an active thing everyone of a certain race has. If skill points were to be added in such a way, I'd recommend at least a level 0 added chance so that it fits lore-wise. I.e, level 0 Bloodlust requires one feeds once a week/month. Ultimately, we still have the weakness, but to varying degrees. Furthermore, Stench would have to be reworked since it is actually a good skill when invested in, rather than a weakness.

The problem, as you said, is in weaknesses like Swimming for Anyeli. I'm not sure how to work a weakness for the Anyeli, but it'd definitely need to be something other than swimming, mainly because in any case where they might need to swim, they could simply fly over water. Sure, they can't move through underground/water passages, but that is no big problem in most cases. Maybe adding an Elysian weather forecast (depending on the climate for each area) for each thread created on a certain day. I can't even remember any threads I've looked back on mentioning such a thing, but it'd be interesting on a depth and atmospheric level to add into the RP.

Since things like Metabolism, Urbanitis, Bloodlust and Hoard, the weakness comes not from needing to hoard things or in needing to eat so much, but in how those things affect the concentration required to change shape or read minds. I'd say that along with the taking on of a weakness/skill points, one would have to actively show that weakness at play, especially being amplified after using a power/energy it'd require. Dunno, might get too strict there for some, though.

So one option is to give Anyeli (and possibly Zanaryans) a different weakness that's more easily adapted into a skill boost. (In which case, any ideas? ) Another option is to ignore the IC meaning behind a weakness (which I'd prefer not to do, really).

Nooooooo. :'( Keep IC meaning for each weakness, it really defines each race as you deal with a new characterization for each character you have. I'm all “STINKY AND PROUD”, so I like Stench anyway. Just needs tweaking on it's skill design, I suppose. Could even be worked as a skill/weakness at the same time. >_> Dunno how many would like spending THOSE points, though.

As for Anyeli possible weaknesses, the only thing that comes to mind is an offshoot of Urbanitis. At day/night, each respective Anyeli "class" is considerably weaker than before, and long times of exposure to the opposite light spectrum may affect their mental state (similar to seasonal affective disorder), though not kill them. I can't think of a more active/daily thing for them unless it were some type of religious action, especially since they have been lacking that. Just offering that as an alternative since the weather/day/night thing might be a pain to monitor all the time.

Differentiation of skills between races/classes:

I don't see a need for completely equal skill point usage, so long as the skills don't get to the point that one race requires 10 points to get to what might just be 5 for another. I like the idea of a sticky thread for feedback, so long as it doesn't actually get forgotten. It'd be like -redirect- -redirect- -redirect-...

It could also offer feedback on any issues that sprout during the changes, too, so that's another plus.

Splitting skill pages:

I think certain skills need to be split, after all (like splitting Glide to its own page because Zanaryans can't fly but the title of the skill suggests they can). I'm not sure to what extent that needs to be taken, though. Are skills like Heal (shared by Viridi and Peacekeepers, but with their own techniques) okay together on the single page, or should they be separate and have different names?

Flight seemed alright to me when I was working on Rahil, as it specifically mentioned that Zanaryans needed a certain height to jump off/would slowly descend way back when. Depends on how others feel on that, though, I suppose.

The main thing I'd suggest is an extended description on the differences between each “style” at the top of the page. As such, a fire elementalist Zanaryan and Nymph/Sidhe would still maintain the same page, just with an added description on how the skill works for each of them.

[Aiden]

Oh man, so much to read and so much to type!

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One thing I want to ask quickly is: Would the skills be easier to navigate and/or understand and/or "chart" if they weren't combined (like instead of "Elemental Manipulation" all being one page, we had pages for Light Manipulation, Shadow Manipulation etc, or two different Heal pages for Viridi and Peacekeepers)?

Yes, I think it would help to split some skills by races, but only if you plan to really expand on the skills. For example, there'd be an EM page for anyeli, an EM page for Nymphs, and EM page for zanaryans. Then a healing page for viridi, a healing page for anyeli...and each page would talk about the logistics of nymph EM vs zanaryan EM, or the specific limits per level of the skill.

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Should elemental/other supernatural powers be similar to combat, where you can really just keep investing without reaching what feels as "OMG THAT'S CHEAP AS HECK!" or should it stay as it is?

I agree that it does seem cheap as heck sometimes with the EM. IE: After just 5 levels of EM, people can boil an entire ocean, then turn it to ice. Start a hurricane or send away a storm. Sprout a forest then decimate it with an earthquake. After just 5 levels, there's so much free reign to elemental manipulation, which is great because we all like to be creative. But it does seem overpowering.

So let's add more levels to these skills, or even branch out these skills. IE: Water-based users can only 'move' water, but cannot change it to ice, or make it boil, or turn it to steam until later levels/branches. Earth-based users either start out manipulating plants or rocks, but not both. Fire-based users manipulate fire at first, but can manipulate the very heat in someone's body later on. Shadow-users can use shadownets to detect things, but they need more levels before their shadows become tangible (and the higher the level, the more durable the element).

Skill Packs

The 20SP/Skill thing isn't really confusing. However, I'm indifferent to the strictly-xanthai switch so I'll go with whatever.

Hybrid Packs

Again, I agree with David. It doesn't make sense to limit a character's nature-given secondary abilities to something you need to buy with xanthai. I think the hybrid packs should go completely. And gaining the skills should be incorporated into IC interaction/explanation, same as any of our other characters gaining a dragon bond or new therian form, etc.

Weaknesses

Please don't turn them into advantages! I like these weaknesses, and they define each race as much as their actual skills. If I had my way, I'd give more weaknesses to each of the races. Mwahahah j/k kind-of. Plus, percentages give me nightmares.

I say keep the weaknesses, but eliminate them as a pre-req for other skills (it's also less confusing that way skill-building-wise). A nymph might be uber good with manipulating her element, but collapse the minute she steps into the city. If she lived in the Fae all her life, she'd never have the need to get over Urbanitis, see?

Anyeli weaknesses. Can we say wing fragility? Higher the level, the more durable the bones. Course that'll lead to lots of broken bones in fledglings but hey that's what peacekeepers are for right!?!? Swimming shouldn't be eliminated completely though. It's a logical weakness so why not keep both as weaknesses?

Now, an overall weakness I'd like to suggest is mental susceptibility (opposite of mental shield). Just looking at mind control...I think at only level 2, there's 70% chance of making somebody do something. Crazy freaky and the whole world's vulnerable. I'm not saying that all elysians should be able to build a 100% shield, but perhaps some would have more resistance than others? There are probably more weaknesses out there that I can add but I'll spare you guys this time.

[Xanth]

For clarification, I was thinking of the Hybrid Token as a replacement for the Hybrid Packs, less an "item", per se, and more of a different way to do what the hybrid packs do (which is to make secondary skills possible without allowing dramatically overpowered characters). I figured that was one way to encourage use of the Prize Shop (since that's another sort-of issue I've been looking at) and to simplify how hybrids are "paid for". I agree that ζ2,000 would be extravagant for it, to say the least, so the price was something I would have looked at later.

I'll consider this some more. I'm kind of leery about lifting the hybrid 'restrictions' altogether, but fiddling with the skill packs may solve the issue with them anyway. And maybe some edits to the HC page explaining that hybrids must have appropriate background in their app.

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One thing I want to ask quickly is: Would the skills be easier to navigate and/or understand and/or "chart" if they weren't combined (like instead of "Elemental Manipulation" all being one page, we had pages for Light Manipulation, Shadow Manipulation etc, or two different Heal pages for Viridi and Peacekeepers)?

Joy said:

Yes, I think it would help to split some skills by races, but only if you plan to really expand on the skills. For example, there'd be an EM page for anyeli, an EM page for Nymphs, and EM page for zanaryans. Then a healing page for viridi, a healing page for anyeli...and each page would talk about the logistics of nymph EM vs zanaryan EM, or the specific limits per level of the skill.

David said:

I think having a page for each would allow for more definition one what each does, but might be an unnecessary split if we don't expand on them (mostly thinking of EM for that one). As for the chart...might be harder. It'd look like the Great Houses page in terms of connecting lines between skills and classes

See, that's why I initially put similar/identical skills on the same page with notes and footnotes about the racial differences, and I personally prefer it the way it is for most of them. As it is right now, we can't really expand on those differences without the skill page getting overwhelming. I've been looking at ways to streamline the information more (along with a general review of the wiki, templates, and especially the longer pages like the racial profiles to make the pages easier to read), and this was one of the potential options that I came up with. I can't tell if it would just mean more unnecessary reading (since much of the information about the different EM types is going to be identical anyway) or if it would be a benefit (ie, if you know you're creating a Nymph, you only need to look at the EM page tagged for Nymphs and not the ones also tagged for Zanaryans and Anyeli).

Naming pages could also prove problematic. Instead of simply "Elemental Manipulation", we'd possibly need "Nymph Elemental Manipulation" and "Zanaryan Elemental Manipulation", since one is (intended to be) more defensive and the other more offensive/"active". (I always see Zanaryans as using their element much more in daily life for personal gain, eg. in their job, but Nymphs as using theirs only to maintain the balance or to help their commune.) And we'd need "Viridis Healing" and "Peacekeeper Healing", etc. It could be fun to look at renaming these skills to be more appropriate to the culture. for Peacekeepers, maybe it could be something like Medic rather than Healer, but First Aid isn't right for it, so maybe something like "Field Aid" (like 'field medic') while the Viridis keep "Heal"?

As a side note, Anyeli did originally have two elemental skills each, Aura Form and Shield for Apali, and Shadow Form and Cloak for Skotadi. I removed those pages and added them to EM and ES because someone complained that, comparatively speaking, they were far more restrictive than the EM/ES that Nymphs and Zanaryans have. Putting them back, but with similar wording to the EM page, might be an option?

I like Joy's idea of adding more levels, or a sort of hierarchy of levels, to EM, though. Maybe a combination of that and the user-submitted examples we were talking about would work. :3 I could keep the wording of the skill itself fairly vague as it is now to encompass all the elements, and then people can submit examples to be linked or put in the footnotes. Or would you prefer splitting skills into further 'tiers' of ability rather than splitting them by race/class as I'd asked about? Like, I'm kind of focusing on EM because it's probably the easiest to put into words, but we could do what Joy said, like, split EM into "Manipulation" (moving water but not transforming it), "Transformation" (transforming water, or manipulating heat in a person's body, etc) and then possibly "Creation" (or maybe "Conversion" of one element into another would be a better word for it, since EF is built on the principle that you can't create something from nothing), which would be in the same tier as Transmute...

To be honest, though, the more I talk about this, the less I like the idea of giving each race their own elemental skill page. I think it would be more useful to create expansions that have identical levels but for different aspects of the skill. On the other hand, I can see diversifying Peacekeepers versus Viridi in the way I've mentioned; to make more of the distinction between their techniques and the cultural reasons for it (eg. I think Viridi have more time to regenerate because they deal with fewer patients, whereas Peacekeepers probably have to see a lot of patients in quick succession so taking on the injuries themselves doesn't really work for them).

Weaknesses:

Wing fragility is technically part of the Anyeli profile already and has been mentioned from time to time in RP, so it probably should be an actual weakness. Good point, Joy! I like the idea of Mental Susceptibility, too. I also like David's suggestion of being affected by the sun cycle. *thumbs up* But if we add more weaknesses for them, we ought to add more for the other species, and to be honest I'm completely at a loss. You guys should totally submit these to the skill design contest, btw!

I still kind of want to remove weaknesses as upgradeable levels and just have them as 'racial traits'. Either way, I have decided to remove them as pre-requisites, or certainly only have one level required for them (like Morph only needs Metabolism 1 even at level 6). I'm leaning toward removing them as pre-reqs altogether, though.