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Sherrilyn Kenyon, anyone? [Possible spoilers]

#1 User is offline   Xanth Icon

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 10:25 AM

Isabel said:

Do you, by any chance, read Sherrilyn Kenyon's books? :P

I do actually. :D I love her Dark-Hunter series. Not so much the Dreamhunters but the weres are way hot too. (Vane and Wren ftw!)

Spoiler


I really do love her books though. I've only read the Hunter books and not the ones she's written as Kinley McGregor, but she has a knack for bad-boy hot-biker types that I really love. Plus, you know, who doesn't love to read about the shenanigans of gods?

Spoiler


Has anyone else read any of her books? I have a great passion for paranormal romance and I love the new trend in romances based around living gods. I can't say that that genre is EF's only inspiration because it's been influenced by a lot of different things from all walks of life, but it's definitely up there at the top. XD Which probably explains Vicious, really... :?
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#2 User is offline   Isabel Icon

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 10:46 AM

ooooh... I asked because I read one of Daz's post in the A Day of Beginnings and Revelations thread and I wasn't sure whether it was a reference to it or not... XD Is it? :P

I have to admit though I've only got about 5 of her books. I haven't gotten around to buying the others... Acheron I haven't read but what you said was no spoiler... lol I've read a few excerpts from Sherrilyn Kenyon's site and I actually signed up for her newsletters so I get a few freebies... (like that free short story of Nick...)

I can't say anything about the pantheons though... haven't reached that part yet XD But I also love how Sherrilyn Kenyon integrated the gods and goddesses to her story, specially the origin of the vampires. That was cool.

On a side note... I wouldn't buy the U.S. version of the book... :P Just because I don't like the covers... lol I love the U.K. version more... It's much more.. um.. hot? XD
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#3 User is offline   Xanth Icon

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 11:03 AM

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ooooh... I asked because I read one of Daz's post in the A Day of Beginnings and Revelations thread and I wasn't sure whether it was a reference to it or not... XD Is it? :P

Possibly, although probably not intentionally. You'd have to quote the bit you mean for me to know for sure. I tend to write things and promptly forget them. XD

I've only read the short stories posted on her website. I should sign up for the newsletter... I used to follow her website religiously (among my other favourite writers/series) but I've been so busy running EF the last couple of years I haven't had much time for fangirling. XD I haven't read the most recent excerpts.

What you said about weaving the pantheons into the real world: That's one of the things I love so much about Kenyon's Hunter series and others like Gena Showalter's Atlantis. I think it was subconsciously a very heavy influence on the creation of EF, this idea of gods being not only real and meddlesome but just as flawed as the rest of us (though don't tell Xanth I said that. She's okay with the admitting, but she doesn't like it when other people say it <_<). I think that's one of the reasons I've always been drawn to polytheistic mythology - like the Greeks - because the gods in those are always up to some kind of mischief and nobody expects them to be completely good or completely bad (one of the Dream-Hunter books actually explores the idea of Hades being a great big softie because of his wife. That really tickled me, especially when you consider Kenyon's got him as this really tall, really muscled biker-dude with a mean temper and a bad-ass rep. XD)

I definitely like the idea of vampirism being blamed on the gods. Or any vampire mythos that's outside of the norm (let's face it, they've been done to death so it's always nice when a writer stops and says "Hey, okay, so I'm writing about vampires but let's make them other somehow"). I've seen that kind of thing from a few different writers but I think Sherri's version is really well put together. Some I've read just seem like a case of "oh... um... how do I explain the existence of these creatures that I'm writing about?! *panic stations*" (*ahem* I know that feeling too well XD)

I dunno about the different book covers. (I think it's normally US covers that are hotter than UK, though, so it makes a nice change!) I don't really pay attention to stuff like that, though. XD I just stalk Amazon until they tell me I can have something. (I do wish the publishers would quit with the oversize books, though. They've completely ruined the perfect symmetry of my book shelves. T_T)
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#4 User is offline   Isabel Icon

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 11:36 AM

Dazadi said:

"This one does not taste good with ketchup,"


from

Dragonswan - Sebastian Kattalakis said:

"Be kind to dragons, for thou art crunchy when roasted and taste good with ketchup."


XD If you have the time, you should register at her official dark-hunter BBS.. they have a thread there for all of her character's profile... lots of eye candy.. *wink wink*

I also love the Peltiers from Sanctuary. :lol: The idea of having your own living, breathing, teddy bear gets me.. <3

... this idea of gods being not only real and meddlesome but just as flawed as the rest of us...


Other than it being a paranormal romance, that was also the main thing that attracted me to it. I love mythology in general, and her books are the first ones I've actually read having gods in the real world.
This is the first time that I've heard about Gena Showalter's Atlantis... hmmm... you've just made me add another book to my long list of to buy books... XD

I agree with you with the whole vampire thing... Stephenie Meyer's Twilight for instance. Personally, the only reason I liked it was because of the romance but I'm not too keen on her take on vampire myth... The idea of vampires shining like diamonds are just... :( I've felt that too in a way, the whole "how am I going to write this..." stuff. I've been trying to write a fantasy novel for years, and I've even joined the NaNoWriMo event last year. I just couldn't come up with anything that wouldn't sound like Lord of the Rings, or those other fantasy novels out there. It's hard to think of something different and then when you've read something that is... you'll go "Now why didn't I think of that.... Too late..." XD

The thing with the covers... I'm also a bibliophile as well as bookworm, so cover and paper quality is a must for me. :P I hate it when I see dog ears on my book. I can't help it though when my mom borrows one of my books XD Whenever she returns them, there would bent spines and folded corners... >.< She just laughs at me when I try to scold her so I don't try anymore... :P
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#5 User is offline   Xanth Icon

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 12:32 PM

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Dazadi said:

"This one does not taste good with ketchup,"
from

Dragonswan - Sebastian Kattalakis said:

"Be kind to dragons, for thou art crunchy when roasted and taste good with ketchup."

Ah, yes, that book did bring the saying to my attention and I likely wouldn't have remembered if it hadn't been in one of Sherri's books, but it wasn't a deliberate nod, lol. I've heard the saying a few times since, so I don't know if Sherri made it up and it's caught on or if she heard it somewhere (I suspect the latter). It's always stuck in my head, though (most things to do with dragons sticks to me like glue. I adore them! <3) I'm not really sure where Daz would have heard it, but I kind of imagined it to be a fairly well-known saying, kind of like the things your mom tells you when you're a kid. "Don't talk to strangers, and be kind to dragons!"

I think I did actually join one of her yahoo groups aaaaaaaaaages ago but I don't get on with Yahoo. Too many threads and not enough organisation (I'm a tad OCD about being able to find things). I did check out probably every profile on her website, though, and you're sooooo right. I spent hours drooling. One of the pictures on there was actually the driving inspiration behind an NPC here on EF called Ren Kitsune, so even if you don't read the info, her webmaster has good taste in piccies. (:

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I also love the Peltiers from Sanctuary. :lol: The idea of having your own living, breathing, teddy bear gets me.. <3

omgosh yes! yes yes yes! Mama Peltier's seriously scary and I probably wouldn't like being Aimee, but the idea of having a clan of brothers who keep a coffin in their bar reserved for their baby sister's suitors just cracks me up. Not to mention Dev's tattoo. *snicker* Although I have to wonder what Artie'd say if she ever saw it... And you know, I don't think I ever thought of the Peltiers as teddy bears. I've read too many books where the weres in there are snarling and scrapping and on the verge of killing each other to really imagine them as being soft and cuddly, except... I think that's the huge attraction of romance, for me, is the idea that these tough-as-nails guys will go floofy over a girl. Gets me every time. I just haven't seen any of the Peltier men go floofy yet. (Maybe the next Were-Hunter book? *fingers crossed*)

I'd love to see more of Dante's club though (and how funny is it that she had him name it Dante's Inferno?)

... Dude, I really wish they were all real. Even Stryker's got his appeal. Oh, except the gallu demons. Daimons I can handle, but gallu, ew. But I want my own Simi! :D

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This is the first time that I've heard about Gena Showalter's Atlantis.

I can totally give you moar authors to check out, mostly around the same theme. Except stay away from Christine Feehan. I have her entire Carpathian series and don't really like any of them, except I want to know (Her characters are fun, the writing and plots not so much.) Maggie Shayne's Wings in the Night vamp series was awesome but then she had to go and drag Dracula out of the box (one of those you need to try and start from the beginning, though, and the first books were published back in the 90s so... unless your library loves you?) I loved Melanie Jackson's Lutin Empire/Wild Side books. She even had a fake website for the goblins. XD The last book annoyed me a bit though, because she'd set up her heroines as these amazingly strong women and then it was a case of "oh let's send the MEN off to war". I'm not an active feminist but I don't think you can set your readers up for kick-ass women and then yank the rug out from under them by shoving those same women in the kitchen, either.

Oh oh, and J. R. Ward's Black Dagger Brotherhood books are really fun! The second, Rhage's, man that was cool. Phury's (the latest in the series) is basically one to just kind of read while you wait for the next, but the rest are awesome. And yes, definitely try Showalter's Atlantis, but she has an Alien Huntress series too that's cool. I can't remember if I've read the rest of hers or not... Stone Prince rings a bell.

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I agree with you with the whole vampire thing... Stephenie Meyer's Twilight for instance. Personally, the only reason I liked it was because of the romance but I'm not too keen on her take on vampire myth... The idea of vampires shining like diamonds are just... :( I've felt that too in a way, the whole "how am I going to write this..." stuff. I've been trying to write a fantasy novel for years, and I've even joined the NaNoWriMo event last year. I just couldn't come up with anything that wouldn't sound like Lord of the Rings, or those other fantasy novels out there. It's hard to think of something different and then when you've read something that is... you'll go "Now why didn't I think of that.... Too late..." XD

I'm not going to comment on Twilight because too many people love it and I haven't read it. Except to say that, from what I've heard about it, wtf. o_O

And omg squee, a fellow writer. :D I started out in romantic suspense and had actually finished the first draft of a Harlequinn Silhouette before I was 17 but then I realised I knew diddly squat about the FBI or American legal system - or America in general - and that a lot of the romance was immature! I was working on redrafting while I was at university but my interests shifted towards paranormal romance so I started worldbuilding and planning for a wizards&dragons series. I had a bunch of heroes and heroines, overall series arc, and most of the first book plotted out before I got sick. And realised my concept of relationships was still too immature. (Hey, it's still too immature. XD)

One thing I have learned, however, is that you can't worry too much about being original. What the Tolkien fans don't bother telling people is that he wasn't original himself. Lord of the Rings was based on a Nordic legend called Song of the Niebelung (don't ask me to spell it properly). Nordic mythology had elves and a few of the other key elements long before Tolkien was a twinkle in his daddy's eye. ;)

The key to being a good writer in this regard, I think, is more what you do with your ideas. I don't think Sherrilyn Kenyon's the first to suggest that the gods are real and living among us, but she's the best I've read to date and it's because of what she's done with it. She's taken that concept and mixed in her extensive knowledge of mythology, given us girls what we want out of a romance (hot guys, ftw!) and written it all with a passion for what she's doing that you can feel in every word.

*ahem* Sorry if I sound like I'm lecturing a class or something, but this is a subject I've hit a number of times since university and I've just come to realise that there are no new ideas (look how many remakes they're churning out of Hollywood and the music industry!) but that you can still be creative and original. ^__^

I definitely feel you on the whole "awww, why didn't I think of that?" thing, though. Everything I read/watch (the good stuff, anyway) has kind of a... "aw, man" deal to it for me. XD And then, naturally, when you're sitting there trying to get creative, you're either completely blank or you have other people's stuff running around in your head trying to pass itself off as an original idea. :lol:

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The thing with the covers... I'm also a bibliophile as well as bookworm, so cover and paper quality is a must for me. :P I hate it when I see dog ears on my book. I can't help it though when my mom borrows one of my books XD Whenever she returns them, there would bent spines and folded corners... >.< She just laughs at me when I try to scold her so I don't try anymore... :P

Ahhhh, you'd hate my bookshelves, then. >_> I have bad hands so books are hard to handle, which means bending the spines backwards to keep them open with minimum effort while reading. No doggy ears, but the spines are creased to hell and back. My mom's always telling me "sacrilege! sacrilege!" (not in those exact words >_>) but I'm like... well, I'll stop as soon as they release wayyyyyyy more e-books that I'll actually read.
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#6 User is offline   Isabel Icon

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 11:01 AM

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Ah, yes, that book did bring the saying to my attention and I likely wouldn't have remembered if it hadn't been in one of Sherri's books, but it wasn't a deliberate nod, lol. I've heard the saying a few times since, so I don't know if Sherri made it up and it's caught on or if she heard it somewhere (I suspect the latter).
I think so too. I've seen a similar quotation, "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.", and I'm still trying to find the origin of it. Some say that it's a variation of a quote from Lord of the Rings ("Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."). *shrugs* In any case, I like the quote and I use it as a signature in my email. n_n

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I think I did actually join one of her yahoo groups aaaaaaaaaages ago but I don't get on with Yahoo. Too many threads and not enough organisation (I'm a tad OCD about being able to find things). I did check out probably every profile on her website, though, and you're sooooo right. I spent hours drooling. One of the pictures on there was actually the driving inspiration behind an NPC here on EF called Ren Kitsune, so even if you don't read the info, her webmaster has good taste in piccies.
No, no, no, no... XD Not her yahoo bbs, I hate yahoo too. Here. She made a community BBS for all her books, and under Character Play>>DHOTM are all the links to all the characters in her books n_n and it's also updated regularly which is great.

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omgosh yes! yes yes yes! Mama Peltier's seriously scary and I probably wouldn't like being Aimee, but the idea of having a clan of brothers who keep a coffin in their bar reserved for their baby sister's suitors just cracks me up. Not to mention Dev's tattoo. *snicker* Although I have to wonder what Artie'd say if she ever saw it... And you know, I don't think I ever thought of the Peltiers as teddy bears. I've read too many books where the weres in there are snarling and scrapping and on the verge of killing each other to really imagine them as being soft and cuddly, except... I think that's the huge attraction of romance, for me, is the idea that these tough-as-nails guys will go floofy over a girl. Gets me every time. I just haven't seen any of the Peltier men go floofy yet. (Maybe the next Were-Hunter book? *fingers crossed*)

... Dude, I really wish they were all real. Even Stryker's got his appeal. Oh, except the gallu demons. Daimons I can handle, but gallu, ew. But I want my own Simi!
Oh yes! I couldn't agree more with you there. Which is why I think my love life will be forever doomed.. XD I'd have to compare the men with all of Sherrilyn Kenyon's men... lol. Hopefully not... There's also an official site for Sanctuary with profiles of the Peltier's and those who work in the club, including Marvin n_n.
...And the adorable Simi! Who wouldn't want to have one of her. :D

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I can totally give you moar authors to check out, mostly around the same theme. Except stay away from Christine Feehan. I have her entire Carpathian series and don't really like any of them, except I want to know (Her characters are fun, the writing and plots not so much.)
Really? :o Her series is in my list of "to buy" books... XD That got me thinking again...

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Maggie Shayne's Wings in the Night vamp series was awesome but then she had to go and drag Dracula out of the box (one of those you need to try and start from the beginning, though, and the first books were published back in the 90s so... unless your library loves you?)
Aren't they in print anymore? Hmm... We've got lots of second hand bookstores around here so maybe I could find it... XD

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I loved Melanie Jackson's Lutin Empire/Wild Side books. She even had a fake website for the goblins. The last book annoyed me a bit though, because she'd set up her heroines as these amazingly strong women and then it was a case of "oh let's send the MEN off to war". I'm not an active feminist but I don't think you can set your readers up for kick-ass women and then yank the rug out from under them by shoving those same women in the kitchen, either.
I think I've seen her books in bookstores... lol another one to add to my ever growing list... XD

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Oh oh, and J. R. Ward's Black Dagger Brotherhood books are really fun! The second, Rhage's, man that was cool. Phury's (the latest in the series) is basically one to just kind of read while you wait for the next, but the rest are awesome.
Oh my god! I have her books! Well, e-books actually which I downloaded
Spoiler
a few months ago... I'm currently reading the first book... ^_^.

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I'm not going to comment on Twilight because too many people love it and I haven't read it. Except to say that, from what I've heard about it, wtf.
Hahaha I wouldn't be surprised. It's not that great of a book. XD My mom loves it though... I also have this thing that when I read a book and suddenly it got major attention and hype, I lose interest. Kind of like what happened to Harry Potter. XD But I finished them just to see what happened in the end XD.

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And omg squee, a fellow writer. :D I started out in romantic suspense and had actually finished the first draft of a Harlequinn Silhouette before I was 17 but then I realised I knew diddly squat about the FBI or American legal system - or America in general - and that a lot of the romance was immature! I was working on redrafting while I was at university but my interests shifted towards paranormal romance so I started worldbuilding and planning for a wizards&dragons series. I had a bunch of heroes and heroines, overall series arc, and most of the first book plotted out before I got sick. And realised my concept of relationships was still too immature. (Hey, it's still too immature.)

One thing I have learned, however, is that you can't worry too much about being original. What the Tolkien fans don't bother telling people is that he wasn't original himself. Lord of the Rings was based on a Nordic legend called Song of the Niebelung (don't ask me to spell it properly). Nordic mythology had elves and a few of the other key elements long before Tolkien was a twinkle in his daddy's eye.

The key to being a good writer in this regard, I think, is more what you do with your ideas. I don't think Sherrilyn Kenyon's the first to suggest that the gods are real and living among us, but she's the best I've read to date and it's because of what she's done with it. She's taken that concept and mixed in her extensive knowledge of mythology, given us girls what we want out of a romance (hot guys, ftw!) and written it all with a passion for what she's doing that you can feel in every word.

*ahem* Sorry if I sound like I'm lecturing a class or something, but this is a subject I've hit a number of times since university and I've just come to realise that there are no new ideas (look how many remakes they're churning out of Hollywood and the music industry!) but that you can still be creative and original.
lol It's ok, you definitely have a point there. n_n I think I've heard of the Nordic Legend... they even made a movie out of it right? Never went to see it though... XD You should try joining NaNoWriMo. It's an event every November where the main goal and challenge for those who joined is to write a 50,000 word novel in one month. It's fun but I wasn't able to reach the quota though in the end of the month. XD If you get to finish though, you get a certificate and a badge, as well as a chance to get your novel published. n_n

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Ahhhh, you'd hate my bookshelves, then. >_> I have bad hands so books are hard to handle, which means bending the spines backwards to keep them open with minimum effort while reading. No doggy ears, but the spines are creased to hell and back. My mom's always telling me "sacrilege! sacrilege!" (not in those exact words >_>) but I'm like... well, I'll stop as soon as they release wayyyyyyy more e-books that I'll actually read.
lol... oh Harry Potter also have a cool UK cover that I really really want. Though I'll probably won't get to buy that anytime soon. >_< My first Harry Potter book was a gift from a friend and it had a US version cover. Then I found out about the UK version and I went "No way!" XD Sadly though, the US version of the books was the only one being sold here... until recently... >( that got me really disappointed. XD
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#7 User is offline   Xanth Icon

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 10:00 AM

View PostIsabel, on Jan 30 2009, 03:01 AM, said:

I think so too. I've seen a similar quotation, "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.", and I'm still trying to find the origin of it. Some say that it's a variation of a quote from Lord of the Rings ("Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."). *shrugs* In any case, I like the quote and I use it as a signature in my email. n_n

I wouldn't be surprised. XD

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Here.[/url] She made a community BBS for all her books, and under Character Play>>DHOTM are all the links to all the characters in her books n_n and it's also updated regularly which is great.

Oh yes! I couldn't agree more with you there. Which is why I think my love life will be forever doomed.. XD I'd have to compare the men with all of Sherrilyn Kenyon's men... lol. Hopefully not... There's also an official site for Sanctuary with profiles of the Peltier's and those who work in the club, including Marvin n_n.
...And the adorable Simi! Who wouldn't want to have one of her. :D

I'm right there with you. No real man could ever compete. I've reconciled with my fate, though, and I figure as long as I have friends, I'll be happy without a man. Although I really wouldn't say no to any of Kenyon's men (or Vin Diesel...)

I've seen the website BBS too, but for some reason I can't remember, I didn't actually sign up. I think at the time I was at university and trying to write my own books so I was avoiding things I knew would make me procrastinate. (: But yeah, I spent a lot of time on her website when I first discovered it. I loved the whole concept of having a secret website with secret sections for the hunters. She's really got a handle on what made the ancient world, and what makes the modern world, and how the two can fit together in ways that are believable and humorous. :D

You know, in retrospect, I think that's kind of the thing I was hoping for when we built Elysian sanctuaries - that camaraderie and the feeling that no matter what happened, you had someplace safe to go. >_>

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I can totally give you moar authors to check out, mostly around the same theme. Except stay away from Christine Feehan. I have her entire Carpathian series and don't really like any of them, except I want to know (Her characters are fun, the writing and plots not so much.)
Really? :o Her series is in my list of "to buy" books... XD That got me thinking again...

Yeah, it's strange, because... she's just one of those authors that has a sound premise and interesting ideas, but who just doesn't play well with them (in my opinion, anyway). Her writing style can be annoying and repetitive (she uses the word "addicting" a lot, especially in the first half-dozen books), and while some of the characters can be interesting and dynamic, others are two-dimensional and irritating. She's kind of hit-and-miss, but more miss than hit.

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Aren't they in print anymore? Hmm... We've got lots of second hand bookstores around here so maybe I could find it... XD

The recent books in the series (like the dracula one) are still in print but the series has been going for a good ten years, I think, and knowing publishers I doubt the early ones are available as new anymore. Frankly, it was the early ones that hooked me; the later ones don't seem quite as good. The original books in the series were fascinating (an Ancient Egyptian priestess vampire popping in and out of the life of a 14th-century knight, Gilgamesh masquerading as some guy called Damien (I think?), things like that) but my interest took a serious nosedive when I read the Dracula book. Nothing against Dracula fans, but he's been done to death. XP

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I loved Melanie Jackson's Lutin Empire/Wild Side books.

Oh oh, and J. R. Ward's Black Dagger Brotherhood books are really fun!
I think I've seen her books in bookstores... lol another one to add to my ever growing list... XD

Oh my god! I have her books! Well, e-books actually which I downloaded a few months ago... I'm currently reading the first book... ^_^

Hee, yeah. Again, Jackson's Wild Side romances are kind of hit and miss but much more hit than miss. I especially love Jack and Io's book, which is the first I think, but most of them are really enjoyable and pretty fast-paced. And I really think you're gonna love the Brotherhood. :D

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I'm not going to comment on Twilight because too many people love it and I haven't read it. Except to say that, from what I've heard about it, wtf.
Hahaha I wouldn't be surprised. It's not that great of a book. XD My mom loves it though... I also have this thing that when I read a book and suddenly it got major attention and hype, I lose interest. Kind of like what happened to Harry Potter. XD But I finished them just to see what happened in the end XD.

Oh, me too. I only read Happy Potter so I'd have an argument against the fangirling and I wasn't impressed. I didn't even get through the first chapter of the last book. I like the movies well enough, though - mostly because they cut them down by more than half. >D Just the idea of people liking something because everyone else likes it annoys me quite a bit (things like fashion included) but I refuse to stop liking something just because people jump on the bandwagon (a rebel am I! haha).

I've tried NaNoWriMo, but didn't even get to the sign-up part. XD I'm not up to novel writing anymore and EF keeps me plenty busy. I've got all kinds of respect for writers who take part, though. ^^
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#8 User is offline   Isabel Icon

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 09:59 AM

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She's really got a handle on what made the ancient world, and what makes the modern world, and how the two can fit together in ways that are believable and humorous.
This is why I admire her so much. When I started to try writing a novel, I started out thinking I wanted it to be set in medieval times. Then I realized, I don't know anything about those times, the culture, the people, etc. That's when it just dawned on me the research a writer took to make his/her world realistic enough. XD That was a huge blow. Then I went to the library took down a few books and started reading a little about those times. It's huge work, but enjoyable anyway. n.n Makes me wonder you know, what it would be like if Sherri's world was real... :?
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#9 User is offline   Xanth Icon

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 01:52 PM

Absolutely wonderful, and utterly terrifying. :D

I think Sherri does so well with the Ancient world because she got a degree in Ancient Studies from what I've read. She already had a deep love for it and I think it's what prompted the creation of the DH world. ^^

Research is definitely a labour of love, though, and I think you have to really like what you're writing about in the first place. That passion transfers to the page and makes the book that much more interesting. :)
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