[Xanth]

Big question, that, and one I've been pondering for a while, frankly.

I'll be honest here. I've really let the side down. In a year and a half of rewriting, I've only managed to complete the Anyeli level guidelines - that's one out of six (not counting humans who are no longer levelled anyway). I've been working on the 'Vari since the Anyeli page went up officially, and I'm really not making progress. I'm struggling. And honestly, I'm not convinced anymore that I can finish the job.

I also have doubts about how suitable a level system is for EF in the first place. It certainly seems to discourage people from joining, and as has been discussed before during topics like the aging issue, can stunt creativity. EF's always been more character- and relationship-driven than plot or action, but I'm wondering if at least one reason people don't seem to use their characters' abilities often - if at all - is due to the confusion of the current guidelines and the restrictions of the system.

I decided on having a level system as an incentive and a way to prevent super-powerful characters from being created, but I think it's probably gone too far the other way and it doesn't seem to act as much of an incentive to post, either.

So... I need to know, how many of you like the level system? If I'm worrying over nothing, I'll keep working because the reasons for having it still exist, but if it really is more trouble than it's worth, I'll look into other ways of accomplishing what the system is meant to (this may mean a longer application form and more detail in the race profiles, but there'd be much more freedom in roleplay, I think).

[Zephyr]

Personally, I vote that we should keep the levels system. I like it, and it's been with EF so long I'd be sad to see it go. At the same time though, I can see both sides of the situation, so I'll be OK with whatever decission is made.

[Isaac S.]

I am in favor of getting rid of it (at least for now). While a lvling system is nice to pace the power gain of players it doesn't always work with PBPRPGs because the pacing of the story ends up being a lot faster than the pacing of power gain.

With a PBPRPG it is mostly about the story and so if a player has a really cool idea for a character for a story that they want to create than they are going to want to create it. With a lvling system though, if that character is anything but the lowest lvl than they are going to have to wait until they lvl the character up until they are able to have the character which they wanted and the story they thought of. This wouldn't be so bad except in PBPRPGs the pacing is most likely based on RL (since anything else is usually too fast, too slow or at least too unconfidently complicated to keep track of) and so the character lvls up more or less based on RL, which when compared to the pacing of the plot is really really really really really really slow.

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My original idea for Isaac was a character that was around lvl 4 or 5 and about 200 years older. While it is fun playing a child, there just doesn't seem to be enough PCs/plot events to make being a fledgling growing up in the Cloud Palace that interesting to RP. This of course could be partially from me not knowing what it is exactly like being a fledgling growing up in the cloud palace, but then again if there were more PCs then they could help move things along.

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The reason I am in favor of getting rid of the lvling system is because while it does help to pace the power gain of players not everyone wants to have to play out a character's rise to power from start to finish. Sometimes it helps to start in the middle so that they can get into the thick of things without having to consider if a certain encounter is their lvl. They can get to where the real adventures begin without having to worry if their character is just some kid who is way over his head.

[Eivyonydd]

What is wrong with the leveling system?
Currently it exists but the guidelines for play and powers do not, or are not complete. The Anyeli are done so they should feel happy to play their characters as they see fit but for many of us it is difficult to know what we have or how we grow.

Why should we ditch the level system?
I don't think that levels is appropriate to the style of play in EF. EF is heavily character interaction, skills, combat and questing are very secondary. That might be in part because the system for using powers isn't completely established. Levels are great for games like D&D where you go and bash some monsters and then return to a town and chat with people. The experience doesn't come from the chatting but the fighting.

Should players be able to start with more advanced characters?
This is where I disagree with Isaac in part. Yes I think you can have an older character, but I don't necessarily think they should be more advanced than a younger character. I personally think skill and experience isn't always based on age. I'm also not sure that a new player should be given the power to the kingdom so to speak. A new player comes in with a powerful character and starts doing stuff.

Do I like powers?
Definitely! Part of the allure of this game is seeing my character develop his powers. I don't want him to become a god, and I don't want him to be perfect but i do want him to gain skill and power. I have tried to add some of that development into my play, but again it is difficult to know how far I can push without proper guidelines.

What can we do?
Well I had previously thought that you could replace levels with powers. Instead of gaining levels you buy powers with your experience. At the time that xp was post count, but now I think it could be money or karma given that they are tied together and relate to the posting and roleplaying of ones character.

However that requires each power to have an advancement tree. I had written something in the past that worked for almost everyone, but regardless it is about the same undertaking as writing up levels with powers attached for each character. Also it doesn't really reflect things like skills (fighting, survival, lockpicking, pickpocketing) that some people excel at.

Another Solution
Just as a thought perhaps instead of ditching levels and powers we make them simpler.
1. Each race has a brief description of the type of powers they can have and how they develop. You are free to develop your powers how you see fit.
2. Each race has a brief description of the path they take through life. You can start your character on any part of that path you wish (i.e. Nymph, Dryad, Roving), but advancing to the next will require in character roleplay.
3. Finally and possibly most important, levels still exist but are unrelated to the powers and skills you have. Instead they are related to how good you use them. In reality this is only important for character v character conflict or conflict against NPC monsters and quests. Basically all characters start with 1 level or whatever you want to call it. You advance it buy spending money or karma (you can buy karma with money so I'm not sure which is the most appropriate). If you have higher level than another player then you should win a conflict between the two of you. So high level basically means you are better, but you can still have all the powers at a low level if you really want to roleplay them.

It's more fluid, but does have a simple system in place for facilitating the roleplaying. i.e. Vyon is level 4 and Daz is level 10 so he can fight her but he shouldn't expect to win. Emma could if she wanted to for the sake of roleplaying Daz's story let Vyon win, but it is Daz's decision based on level. Obviously you will still have the roleplay in there.

Hope that makes sense. Just trying to offer a simple solution that I think could work.

[Xanth]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I don't want to reply to anything in depth just yet, I'd prefer to wait and see what's said. Having said that:

Jarratt, yes, I had thought the racial profiles would need expanding more, with information on the abilities (honestly, we have the abilities now, it's just that dividing and writing them up to meet all the goals I have is what's so difficult, lol) for each race and class. I hadn't considered keeping a simpler level system, and it would require more thought because, having tried a ton of different ideas for buying powers and levels and stuff, I'm not convinced even that could work (or that I could make it work) but it's definitely something I'll keep in mind. ^^

But, no, I'm afraid I wouldn't want to lighten the restrictions enough to allow new players free reign the way Grey suggested, but I think we could have a rule like the one for humans whereby a member who already has their first character and is looking for a second/third/etc could go for a stronger character.

Thanks again!

[Sabrina]

as a sick person, i am entitled to typos and/or not making sense. any queries can be taken up with my lawyer.



personally, i ejoy the levelling system because i've found it useful to make sabs grow and become more informed of elysia. it's sort of like the stages of childhood, like you know, you have to crawl before you can walk and you have to walk before you can run etc (did that even maek sense?). but i can see it's causing a lot of trouble for emsuh, who ha enough on her plate as it is, so i'm really neutral.

[Alexis]

I'd have to agree with liz there. If emms has enough on her plate, then I don't really mind if we don't do to much with a level system. on the other hand, I personally love the levels system. Even for those who have a good idea for a high level character, actually developing them through play and time allows for the character to grow so that they can truly grow into what they would be. Its also far more interesting to see where your play takes your character with these guidelines.

With that in mind, The leveling system doesn't have to be quite so developed. I just think there should be some guidlines to development so that people can't start out with powerful characters. Maybe after there first character has grown and developed, they could be allowed to start a character thats more powerful, but to see someone completly new come in and start out with a powerful character and not really understand how the land and the site works is a little disconcerting (even if it was me, lol )

[Xanth]

I you all!

So I've been brainstorming based on what's been said, and I'm leaning more and more towards removing levels - at least, as we know them now - in favour of something much, much simpler. I would still have quite a bit of work to do because I'd need to add sections to the racial profiles (not to mention all the other good stuff like the usergroups ) but at the moment, it looks like that'll be way easier and faster for me to complete.

I've considered what you guys have said about keeping some form of level system, and I tend to agree. I like Jarratt's suggestion of being able to 'upgrade' a character's overall skill level, but for various reasons I think our best bet would be to allow the purchasing of upgrades in a purely OOC way (using IC currency, but it's the player who buys the upgrade and then RPs that character as simply having improved or learned rather than asking Xanth for extra abilities, etc).

I'm also leaning towards having fewer levels (and possibly calling them something else to prevent confusion between this new system and the current one), between 5 and 10, but I can see some potential issues with that so it might need further thought. As for descriptions of levels... assuming we stick with the 10, I was wondering about using a similar descriptor system as the one I found here. That way, members can still improve their characters, but they'd be using a combination of the powers overview in the racial profiles and the skill rating, as opposed to me writing up something for every level+ability. Of course, those ratings might be difficult to interpret in some cases, and I'm not sure how they'd interact with the upgrade option, so that's something else that needs further thought.

I do much prefer the idea of a simpler ranking system, though (ie. being able to simply say that a Level 10 character can easily beat a Level 4 character, who could easily beat a Level 1, rather than saying anything specific about what each level can do) as the main problem I'm having is grading and writing up powers for the levels. Even with very brief descriptions, it's become rather difficult.

With a new level system, we might be able to remove the age restrictions, although as I said before, there will be some power restrictions for new players and possibly a restriction on how many powerful characters a single member can have (relative to their total number, probably).

And finally, I should mention (since I know it's probably a concern) that I would be open to characters being redone if members wanted to re-introduce them under the new system, although obviously I'd rather not alter established personalities, relationships and all that jazz since it'd mess with other characters.

At any rate, I'm hoping for some more opinions, but in the meantime there's a couple of questions I'd like to put to you guys.

• How much of a problem would it be to have no level guidelines at all?
  
  As mentioned, there would be a general overview of powers available to characters in their race's profile, which at the moment I imagine would be a list of the powers with probably a minimum and maximum range. Again, not really sure how this would interact with upgrades, but if we went with a rating system like Alternacy's, 0 would be the minimum and 10 the maximum (so for a quick example, 0 Flight for the Anyeli would be what's currently the first Glide level (You can glide up to 200 yards from a point higher than 50 feet) and 10 Flight would be the equivalent of level 10 flight (You can fly up to 800 miles).
  
  Part of the reasoning behind the proposal to change is that many members, current and past, seem(ed) to struggle with the restrictions placed on them by the levels and I want to free y'all up some, but if that freedom's likely to come with its own curse then I need to see where the happy medium is. ^^
  
  
  
• Regarding upgrades, what's the consensus on characters still starting out at level 1 (or maybe, looking at the Alternacy ratings, that should be 5 for average rather than 0 for awful? ) by default?
  
  Except, since the buying of upgrades would be OOC, we could possibly have some form of cross-character buying, so like... an established character who's got enough to buy an upgrade could actually donate that upgrade to a new character so a member could start their second/third/etc character at a higher-than-normal level? I mean, I'm just thinking of this right now so obviously there are kinks that'd need to be discussed and worked out, but I like the initial idea. That could be how more powerful characters are achieved, but I dunno, it could be tough for members to make it work.

Anyhoo, thanks again for posting!

[Sabrina]

i've been thinking... and, i think that it would be an awesome idea to maybe take the idea (similar to the link you posted emsuh) from this game i play. it's a very good game, btw. ) it's called oblivion, aka the elder scrolls iv, and it uses a levelling system where you have two governing attributes (strength, willpower, endurance, intelligence, speed, agility, personality and luck) and then you have seven major skills which you specialise in, picked from a huge list. i'm not sure whether or not you'd want to use it... but i love the game. and i like how you become more experienced.

otherwise, ignore me.

[Xanth]

Ahhh, a system like that was something we discussed at one point (along with other points-based skills), but in the long run it was decided that stats-based systems like that would get in the way of the RP so we kept returning to the basic idea of powers being graded on a level system and described simply as they are now. ^^

I should've been more specific when I mentioned Alternacy, actually, because I realise now that link leads to a system that, overall, is actually much bigger than the tiny bit I was interested in. But basically, it was the idea of grading skill level per power with descriptive words like "average", "weak", "good" and "excellent" that appeals to me, as I think it's probably the easiest way to define how good a character is at a particular skill without actually defining anything (if that makes sense).

Really, I like the powers as they are now and to an extent the level system too, it's just that (not even considering the work involved and the fact that it's taken me so long to get just one race finished (and I'm not even convinced the Anyeli are done)) that sytem tends to be unwieldy, have negative effects like restricting players in ways that can kill RP and put people off joining the site, and interfere with character development.

[Lani]

I think that the level system is a good thing, it helps new players directly see the results of the efforts that they put in, the only thing I think a new player would dislike is how many posts it takes to level up (50) but thats all personal opinion.

Changing it so that abilitys are described as good or average wouldnt make much sense either, because good to one person could be flying 1000 ft, and to another person, 10 ft, making things more complex.

however, being able to create a second , higher leveled character seems like a good idea. This way members can be more creative, one they are aware of how the system/site works. I cant think of a time where the leveling system hasnt been a good idea in stopping members from being too powerful, and I think that a new system would only serve to make things more complex.

[Xanth]

Level 2 is 25 posts.

The good/bad/excellent ratings would be coupled with descriptions for what characters can do at entry-level (which is currently level 1) and at top level (currently level 10), so we wouldn't be forced to make stuff up on a purely individual basis, but I see your point about how each of us defines things differently.

I'm still brainstorming, but I'm still really interested in hearing opinions, especially in relation to the questions I asked here. ^^

[Erasmus]

One thing you could do is cut down on the amount of levels and make them broader, maybe lower the amount from ten to five, with maybe a very rough level layout like this:

Level 1 - Weak
Level 2 - Normal/Regular Human
Level 3 - Skilled
Level 4 - Masterful
Level 5 - Superhuman

In terms of suggestions, that's all I've got at the moment... maybe I'll think of something better at a later date.

[Lani]

Giving my opinion to the other questions

-How much of a problem would it be to have no level guidelines at all?

I know that I'd get WAY more confused, and wouldnt really have an idea as to how to work the idea. The skill points are something I dislike, because the way I see the guidebook right now (ex. anyeli) is that the powers you listed are the HIGHEST they can go up to at that point. So during that level they would work to make that skill level higher so that they could level normally, I believe that adding a system in at this point wouldnt be a good idea.

-Regarding upgrades, what's the consensus on characters still starting out at level 1 (or maybe, looking at the Alternacy ratings, that should be 5 for average rather than 0 for awful? ) by default?

That would be okay, but I think it would also depend on situation. For example, what if your character is an anyeli who's mother (to keep them safe) hacked there wings off as a baby and sent the child to a human orphanage? Obviously flight skill level would remain the same and they'd believe that they where a normal human, making the system wonk up.

However, the buying upgrades for other people I dont think is a good idea either ><. Its kind of like Dazadi going to Piper and saying: "I have all this extra power, want some?" It just doesnt seem to work IC as well as OOC.




Sorry about seeming so picky ><

[Xanth]

Mmk, so I think the general consensus is that "ratings" would be too open for debate/interpretation, so I'll try to think of something else for that. I'm pretty convinced we should go ahead with this, though - not just because the work is too much for me, but also because, frankly, I'm really just like to take a step back and allow members a bit more freedom with their characters in terms of powers. ^^

Grace - I think I missed the point you were trying to make, hun. Even with the current system, the example you gave could screw things up (although, a wingless Anyeli couldn't fly at all no matter how high their level, so that in itself wouldn't be a logistical problem anyway).

However, it has to be said that no matter what system we use, members aren't forced to use the powers their character has (although obviously, for the current promotion system, we require members use their character's racial traits). So, that is something to consider here, because I noticed one of the concerns mentioned was a character's actual stage of development compared to their level? I mean, when you think - Piper's level 8 but she still acts like she's level 2 or 3 for the most part and that's a choice I've made as her player, so it's definitely not a case of "your character's level 8, they HAVE to be awesome at X, Y and Z" regardless of the system we're using.

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However, the buying upgrades for other people I dont think is a good idea either ><. Its kind of like Dazadi going to Piper and saying: "I have all this extra power, want some?" It just doesnt seem to work IC as well as OOC.

To be fair, I didn't mean it like that. By OOC purchasing, I meant the characters wouldn't be aware of it at all. At the most, they'd realise they were gaining strength but, IC, that would be put down to them simply learning more or getting better at what they do.

The purchasing would be purely OOC. For instance, if a member had a single character they played for six months and in that time they gained a lot of money but had nothing to spend it on, and then decided they wanted to create a second character who was in the middle of their life cycle rather than at the beginning, they could use the money from the first character to 'donate' upgrades to their second character.

But, yeah, at the moment, I'm not sure how well the idea would work so it's just something I wanted to throw out there for discussion. ^^

I might work on a mock-up page to see if my ideas work out the way I'm hoping and if they make sense to you guys. Naturally, the change is going to cause some confusion, but a big part of me feels now that giving you all the freedom to interpret the powers in your own ways, up to a certain point which I hope doesn't need to be defined in detail the way the current system needs to be, is the best option for us.

[Xanth]

Mmk, so I was up all night working and came up with THIS. Bear in mind this is just a mock-up (although I did take the opportunity to update the Zanaryan profile too, so that's worth a read anyway), and that I'm still sketchy on some things.

Upgrades... not convinced they'll work at the moment. They were relatively simple to write up for Zanaryans because they really only have elemental powers to worry about, which have always been fairly open to interpretation, but for the Anyeli - who I know have a much bigger number of powers (though not, I think actually stronger overall) - it'll be much harder.

At the same time, I haven't been forced to write up ten sets of it all, I've literally just written the standard powers - which is the maximum, so members can have their characters come in anywhere under what's described there - and then added a couple of upgrades to the very maximum point that I think a Zanaryan could go.

Of course, that means there aren't too many upgrades available for Zanaryans, and I think that's going to be kind of unbalanced, actually. Here, I've done it so you'd have to buy an upgrade for each individual power, but because everything for the demons is invested in elements, they could make really powerful upgrades really cheaply compared to, again, the Anyeli. (I'm just now realising this, so I think that needs to be worked on some more. )

Anyway, let me know what you think now you can see the kind of thing I'm aiming for with this whole thing.

[Sabrina]

snazzy. i really like that idea! but, and correct me/hit me if i'm wrong, but i think that manipulate element +1 and +2 are the same for dao, djiin and marid.

[Xanth]

Er, it shouldn't be, but by the time I posted this I'd been up a good 20 hours so you're probably right. I swear you to secrecy!

[Eivyonydd]

My 2cents (though chances are this will be long and therefore more like 5cents)

People seem to like the levels because they give them an idea of what their character can do. With that in mind here is what I think you should be aiming for in a levels/powers system.


- It needs to be simple.
- It should give room for creativity.
- It should provide guidelines on how the powers grow.
- It should provide a gauge on how strong/proficient your character is.

I think the last one is especially important for humans because they get no powers.

Piper is also a really nice example of this. She is level 8 but acts level 2-3. Does that mean she has all the powers of a level 8 character and the proficiency of level 2-3 character, or does it mean she has the powers of a level 2-3 vampire but he proficiency of a level 8 character? It would be cool to have a system that answered that question.

I think it would be better if we thought of Powers more like skills, because let's face it none of them are magical, they are all inherent abilities. This way you can know everything but you might be less skilled at doing it than someone who has focused.

To keep it simple though I wanted to break this up into 2 separate categories, Level (your basic proficiency) and Powers (what you can do).

Personally I think that you only need guidelines for the growth of powers, like a cross between the current level guidelines and Emma's upgrades. To make it simple I won't make people purchase them because where does the information go? Instead they should just play them. Level is how good you are at them anyway.

Example.
Anyeli Flight has 5 basic steps;
1: they can glide for short periods
2: they can take off and glide for short distances
3: they can extend their range and have more vertical lift
4: they can lift others and do tricks
5: they have unlimited flight
If 2 Anyeli both have Unlimited Flight the character that is higher level will be better at flying.

Essentially I think the guidelines on what characters can do as they grow only need to be as simple as they above. It is essentially what we are working with at the moment anyway, but allows some creativity.

This could be incorporated into the Upgrade idea in that you start with nothing and can buy upgrades to enhance your skill with a power. But I think the powers should still be simple descriptions of what they do at each level. The important thing here is that there is a framework that players can look at to know how their powers grow.

Personally I think the powers need to be separated so you can grow different powers individually. Whereas with the levels at the moment you kind of grow them all together. But that said, with some tweaks the basic powers on the current are essentially what people are looking for and wanting anyway right?


Is it better to have an auto leveling systems or a system where you buy stuff?
Well I think the system where you buy stuff is much better for defining and growing characters which is what I prefer, but the auto level system is much simpler and has less book-keeping. I know for a fact that often in games players will hoard experience and not buy anything. But then in EF perhaps that is okay. It is fine to stay as a relative newbie if you want to.

Anyway those are some thoughts. And FWIW I basically have every power written down in a 5-step system. They might not all be right but it is somewhere to start from if you wanted to look at that.

[Xanth]

I would like to see what you've got, thanks Jarratt. ^^ If you could email me what you've got (I don't have Word, so .rtf's probably best for me), I'd appreciate it. Thank you.